LN as a Bitcoin Mixer

[Husires]

I started using the Lightning Network over the past 4 months and wanted to know if I wanted to use the Lightning Network as a Bitcoin mixer, what are the correct steps I should take to break the link between my inputs outputs. What wallets should I avoid or wrong settings that should not be made?

[Hamza2424]

I started using the Lightning Network over the past 4 months and wanted to know if I wanted to use the Lightning Network as a Bitcoin mixer, what are the correct steps I should take to break the link between my inputs outputs. What wallets should I avoid or wrong settings that should not be made?

Firstly as far as I know LN can provide some level of degree to privacy but it cant be really considered a reliable privacy solution, Mixers are a good solution still they also possess some risks as third third-party service you are using can compromise your data, if they record. On the same time in the Ln, you can have the control of your data, but still as in LN transaction are processed through the channels and by using the multiple channels we can really make it complex for a person to track back your onchain data, as still its onchain so we can really not consider it reliable.

Some of the tips I've found after making some searching on internet are....

Look for nodes that are run by privacy-conscious individuals or organizations

Avoid Reusing Payment Channels

use one wallet for everyday spending and another for more private transactions. This can help prevent linking transactions back to you.

Hmm... Thanks OP as I was also not aware of most of things, your post made me learn a bit and after making some more search on this topic I think it will be helpful for me as well. Lets wait for other users replies as well, maybe some how they can assist you and me more on this topic.

[Learn Bitcoin]

I don't understand how it may work because I do not have any experience yet. However, opening and closing the lightning network channel is expensive at this moment because of the transaction fees. I am not sure if you talking about opening more than one channel so you could mix your coins and use them as mixers. If so, I guess that will be expensive compared to what is available on the market. Tumbler could be a option that you may try if you want.

[Charles-Tim]

I started using the Lightning Network over the past 4 months and wanted to know if I wanted to use the Lightning Network as a Bitcoin mixer, what are the correct steps I should take to break the link between my inputs outputs. What wallets should I avoid or wrong settings that should not be made?

If you open your own channel yourself, that is enough. The coins you sent after you open your own channel and the coin you sent back after you close your channel can not be linked together.

Firstly as far as I know LN can provide some level of degree to privacy but it cant be really considered a reliable privacy solution, Mixers are a good solution still they also possess some risks as third third-party service you are using can compromise your data, if they record. On the same time in the Ln, you can have the control of your data, but still as in LN transaction are processed through the channels and by using the multiple channels we can really make it complex for a person to track back your onchain data, as still its onchain so we can really not consider it reliable.

Lightning network are mixers. I am not talking about the ones that the channel is provided by the lightning network wallet provider. I do not know much about that. I am talking about the ones that you will open your channel yourself.. if you open your channel yourself, any coin sent from the lightning network to onchain can not be traced. The trace starts from the onchain.

[Husires]

Look for nodes that are run by privacy-conscious individuals or organizations

Avoid Reusing Payment Channels

use one wallet for everyday spending and another for more private transactions. This can help prevent linking transactions back to you.

Do you know which privacy-conscious individuals or organizations offer mixing using the Lightning Network?

However, opening and closing the lightning network channel is expensive at this moment because of the transaction fees.

Opening a channel is one Bitcoin transaction, and if the fees are expensive to open a channel, you will definitely not be able to use Bitcoin. The current average fee is 13 sat/vB, so about $1 to $10 is enough to open a channel in the worst case scenario.

If you open your own channel yourself, that is enough. The coins you sent after you open your own channel and the coin you sent back after you close your channel can not be linked together.

If it's that easy, why don't mixing services work on LN? I mean, the fees will be very low for them compared to what they currently do with onchain mixing.

[Charles-Tim]

[If it's that easy, why don't mixing services work on LN? I mean, the fees will be very low for them compared to what they currently do with onchain mixing.

There are no just one way that mixers are using to mix coins. Example are Whirlpool on Sparrow and Samourai wallet which is a decentralized means of mixing. Another are those centralized mixers like the Thormixer and Mixero. Another is the use of monero to block the trace which mixers like Mixero is providing. So no just one way to mixing.

I have not seen any mixer using lightning network. Even only Mixero that I have seen that make use of monero bridge and no other mixers. It is people that should know that they can make use of some methods which mixers might not be providing to mix coins.

Lightning network can not be a cheap means to mix coins because you will still make use of onchain transactions just like the common mixers.

[Husires]

Lightning network can not be a cheap means to mix coins because you will still make use of onchain transactions just like the common mixers.

Won't it significantly reduce the fees for the mixer?

For users, you will need onchain transactions twice, the first when you want to deposit and the second when you want to withdraw.

As for mixer, current mixer operations are done onchain transactions, so in the event of high fees, using the Lightning Network may reduce the fees for breaking the link between the transactions that the mixer needs?

[bitmover]

I started using the Lightning Network over the past 4 months and wanted to know if I wanted to use the Lightning Network as a Bitcoin mixer, what are the correct steps I should take to break the link between my inputs outputs. What wallets should I avoid or wrong settings that should not be made?

You need to make a make a normal transaction to open a channel.

Also , you need to have inbound capacity. For example, you cannot open a channel with 0.001 btc and expect to receive 0.1 btc via LN. You can't.

I think using swap services such as exch.cx is a better an easier option.

[notblox1]

I started using the Lightning Network over the past 4 months and wanted to know if I wanted to use the Lightning Network as a Bitcoin mixer, what are the correct steps I should take to break the link between my inputs outputs. What wallets should I avoid or wrong settings that should not be made?

I dont think you can do that unless you want to risk holding big amount of money in Lightning Network and pay fees for opening and closing channel.
If you dont change the amounts when closing channel someone could detect what your original bitcoin address was.
There is a risk and you are not guaranteed to have privacy this way.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

Well, ive never used a lightening network before, and as such, I lack complete knowledge of how it works or operates, but it's kind of amazing to actually learn from here that lightening network can actually be used as a mixer.
If this actually be true as it's said, then I think what is left to us is to weigh the cost of using the lightening network as a mixer, and compare it to the cost of using traditional mixers like UniJoin and the rest, which ever is less expensive and less complicated, and most reliable to work at all times, should be chosen.

For me, I will still stick with the traditional mixers, since they are less complicated and also can produce the same level of privacy as when lightening network is used.

[bitmover]

As for mixer, current mixer operations are done onchain transactions, so in the event of high fees, using the Lightning Network may reduce the fees for breaking the link between the transactions that the mixer needs?

You can't really mix using offchain transactions. Becauseee you want privacy on chain.

You are suggesting opening a channel with your coins, and receive other ones when closing the channel.
 I am not sure this will work as you think. As you have to make 2 on chain transactions to open and to close the channel.

Probably using some third party apps , exchanges supporting LN or some services which will give you more inbound capacity and break the link between your coins...

[Papusha20]

Well, ive never used a lightening network before, and as such, I lack complete knowledge of how it works or operates, but it's kind of amazing to actually learn from here that lightening network can actually be used as a mixer.
If this actually be true as it's said, then I think what is left to us is to weigh the cost of using the lightening network as a mixer, and compare it to the cost of using traditional mixers like UniJoin and the rest, which ever is less expensive and less complicated, and most reliable to work at all times, should be chosen.

For me, I will still stick with the traditional mixers, since they are less complicated and also can produce the same level of privacy as when lightening network is used.

All types of data are kept confidential when using the Lighting Network. Mixers in particular are famous for this because all individual information is private and these transactions can never be revealed to others. People who have not used Mixer will never understand its benefits so it is most important for all users to use it.

[Hamza2424]

Do you know which privacy-conscious individuals or organizations offer mixing using the Lightning Network?

Hmm, As I've already mentioned it was a topic that triggered me to look into this topic, anyway let me check some of the other data available for relevant queries.

After making some searches what I've found from CHatGPT is the name JoinMarket which allows some kind of coinjoin mixing service on the LN. For the rest, I'll look forward to making some more searches anytime soon.

[dkbit98]

You can't really mix using offchain transactions. Becauseee you want privacy on chain.

I don't care if privacy mixing was done offchain or onchain, and I actually think that offchain mixing could be better, maybe with something like trustless statechains.
Doing everything online means that all information will be available in public forever, so if I had to choose I would like to avoid that and have as minimal onchain data possible.
However, I am not saying that Lightning is the best choice for this purpose.

[bitmover]

You can't really mix using offchain transactions. Becauseee you want privacy on chain.

I don't care if privacy mixing was done offchain or onchain, and I actually think that offchain mixing could be better, maybe with something like trustless statechains.

I mean that it doesn't matter if  you have privacy off chain, if when you close the channel you just receive your "tainted" coins back with some others.

I know LN will "mix" your coins if you have multiple channels, especially if you use some swap service. But I ddont know if it will really work as intended if you just open a channel and try to have privacy when closing it.