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Author Topic: Taxes  (Read 1230 times)

Offline Tokenista - Rev. Sasha Van Kush

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Taxes
« on: July 08, 2022, 04:04:40 PM »
The New Tax Law says that if you are a Broker, you are one who takes Cash from Clients, then goes to the Market, like some kind of Homegrown, or Wannabe, Hedge Fund Manager, offering Retirement Plans to older Family Members from your Mom's House, or working on Wall Street doing it on the Side or instead of Stocks, you need to report that, abd pay Taxes, from the person having Family Members only paying in, to the Big Shot doing it with everyone's Money, you have to report the Cash in, and Cash Out, and Your Cut.

Now, aside from that, I wrote this years ago somewhere else and thought everyone here could use it.

In March 2014 the IRS made this announcement



IRS Virtual Currency Guidance | Internal Revenue Service



But this was announced simply for the purpose of taxing Bitcoins, no laws were taken into consideration, they just basically said “People with Bitcoin have to pay Capital Gains tax, because we don’t know how else to tax it”. Now if you want to pay those taxes just to be on the safe side, go for it. But if you are willing to make a Federal Case out of it (Cryptocurrency is so new that no one has actually done this yet), here is the actual law regarding things like this:



US Constitution 16th Amendment:



The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from  whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States,  and without regard to any census or enumeration.



USC Title 26 S 316:



 (a) General rule



For purposes of this subtitle, the term “dividend” means any distribution of property made by a corporation to its shareholders



Now, when you receive a Cryptocurrency, do you actually own any more of the website than you did before you got it? Can you get on an airplane and go look at the Cryptocurrency you have? If you own 51% of the Cryptocurrency available, do you now get to decide how Dan and Ned run the website? No. So according to USC Title 26 S 316, Cryptocurrency is not dividends.



USC Title 26 S 317:



 (a) Property



For purposes of this part, the term  “property” means money, securities, and any other property; except that  such term does not include stock in the corporation making the  distribution (or rights to acquire such stock).



USC Title 26 S 301:



(a) In general



Except as otherwise provided in this chapter,  a distribution of property (as defined in section 317(a)) made by a  corporation to a shareholder with respect to its stock shall be treated  in the manner provided in subsection (c).



This brings up some of the same questions as before. When you receive Cryptocurrency, do you now own any more of the website than you did before? And if you acquire 51% of the Cryptocurrency available, do you get to decide how anyone runs anything? No. So you are not a shareholder, and no stock is being distributed, and since no stock is being distributed, it can not be considered property that is being distributed to shareholders. As there are no shareholders.



USC Title 26 S 1221:



 (a) In general



For  purposes of this subtitle, the term “capital asset” means property held  by the taxpayer (whether or not connected with his trade or business),  but does not include—



 (3) a copyright, a literary, musical, or artistic composition, a letter or memorandum, or similar property, held by—



(A)  a taxpayer whose personal efforts created such property,



(B)  in the case of a letter, memorandum, or similar property, a taxpayer for whom such property was prepared or produced, or



(C)  a taxpayer in whose  hands the basis of such property is determined, for purposes of  determining gain from a sale or exchange, in whole or part by reference  to the basis of such property in the hands of a taxpayer described in  subparagraph (A) or (B);



That is the closest the tax law ever gets to calling a written code “Property” and it says that that kind of property is not included.



USC Title 26 S 61:



(a) General definition



Except  as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income  from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the  following items:



(3)  Gains derived from dealings in property;



That is the closest the tax law every gets to saying that such property should be taxed, but it says “Gains” derived, not the property itself.

So, what are Gains?



The Following case overturned a Law, not just an IRS announcement, where Congress tried to apply taxes to stock dividends, claiming that they were income.



Eisner V Macomber:



Eisner v. Macomber (full text) :: 252 U.S. 189 (1920) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center



“The fundamental relation of “capital” to  “income” has been much discussed by economists, the former being likened  to the tree or the land, the latter to the fruit or the crop; the  former depicted as a reservoir supplied from springs, the latter as the  outlet stream, to be measured by its flow during a period of time.  For  the present purpose, we require only a clear definition of the term  “income,”   as used in common speech, in order to  determine its meaning in the amendment, and, having formed also a  correct judgment as to the nature of a stock dividend, we shall find it  easy to decide the matter at issue. After examining dictionaries in common use (Bouv. L.D.; Standard  Dict.; Webster’s Internat. Dict.; Century Dict.), we find little to add  to the succinct definition adopted in two cases arising under the  Corporation Tax Act of 1909 (Stratton’s Independence v. Howbert, 231 U. S. 399,  231 U. S. 415; Doyle v. Mitchell Bros. Co., 247 U. S. 179,  247 U. S. 185),  “Income may be defined as the gain derived from capital, from labor, or  from both combined,” provided it be understood to include profit gained  through a sale or conversion of capital assets, to which it was applied  in the Doyle case, pp.  247 U. S. 183-185. Brief as it is, it indicates the characteristic and distinguishing  attribute of income essential for a correct solution of the present  controversy.  The government, although basing its argument upon the  definition as quoted, placed chief emphasis upon the word “gain,” which  was extended to include a variety of meanings; while the significance of  the next three words was either overlooked or misconceived.  “Derived from capital;” “the gain derived from capital,” etc.  Here, we have the essential matter:  not a gain accruing to capital; not a growth or increment of value in the investment; but a gain, a profit, something of exchangeable value, proceeding from the property, severed from the capital, however invested or employed, and coming in, being “derived” — that is, received or drawn by the recipient (the taxpayer) for his separate use, benefit and disposal — that is income derived from property.  Nothing else answers the description.  The same fundamental conception is clearly set forth in the Sixteenth Amendment — “incomes, from whatever source derived“– the essential thought being expressed with a conciseness and lucidity entirely in harmony with the form and style of the Constitution. “



 “It is manifest that the stock dividend in question cannot be reached by the Income Tax Act and could not, even  though Congress expressly declared it to be taxable as income, unless it  is in fact income.”



“Gibbons v. Mahon, 136 U. S. 549,  136 U. S. 559-560.  In short, the corporation is no poorer and the stockholder is no richer than they were before.”



“And if, for the reasons thus expressed, such a  dividend is not to be regarded as “income” or “dividends” within the  meaning of the Act of 1913, we are unable to see how it can be brought  within the meaning of “incomes” in the Sixteenth Amendment, it being  very clear that Congress intended in that act to exert its power to the  extent permitted by the amendment.”



“Just as we deem the legislative intent  manifest to tax the stockholder with respect to such accumulations only  if and when, and to the extent that, his interest in them comes to  fruition as income, that is, in dividends declared, so we can perceive  no constitutional obstacle that stands in the way of carrying out this  intent”



“[The 16th Amendment]  did not extend the taxing power to new  subjects, but merely removed the necessity which otherwise might exist  for an apportionment among the states of taxes laid on income.  Brushaber v. Union Pacific R. Co., 240 U. S. 1,  240 U. S. 17-19; Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., 240 U. S. 103,  240 U. S. 112 et seq.; Peck & Co. v. Lowe, 247 U. S. 165,  247 U. S. 172-173. “



“In order, therefore, that the clauses cited  from Article I of the Constitution may have proper force and effect,  save only as modified by the amendment, and that the latter also may  have proper effect, it becomes essential to distinguish between what is  and what is not “income,” as the term is there used, and to apply the  distinction, as cases arise, according to truth and substance, without  regard to form. Congress cannot by any definition it may adopt conclude  the matter, since it cannot by legislation alter the Constitution, from  which alone it derives its power to legislate, and within whose  limitations alone that power can be lawfully exercised.”



 “We are clear that not only does a stock  dividend really take nothing from the property of the corporation and  add nothing to that of the shareholder, but that the antecedent  accumulation of profits evidenced thereby, while indicating that the  shareholder is the richer because of an increase of his capital, at the  same time shows he has not realized or received any income in the  transaction.”



“It is equally true that, if he does sell, and  in doing so realizes a profit, such profit, like any other, is income,  and, so far as it may have arisen since the Sixteenth Amendment, is  taxable by Congress without apportionment.”



“Thus, the government contends that the tax “is  levied on income derived from corporate earnings,” when in truth the  stockholder has “derived” nothing except paper certificates, which, so  far as they have any effect, deny him present participation in such  earnings.  It contends that the tax may be laid when earnings “are  received by the stockholder,” whereas he has received none; that the  profits are “distributed by means of a stock dividend,” although a stock  dividend distributes no profits; that, under the Act of 1916, “the tax  is on the stockholder’s share in corporate earnings,” when in truth a  stockholder has no such share, and receives none in a stock dividend;  that “the profits are segregated from his former capital, and he has a  separate certificate representing his invested profits or gains,” “

“We cannot disregard the essential truth  disclosed, ignore the substantial difference between corporation and  stockholder, treat the entire organization as unreal, look upon  stockholders as partners when they are not such, treat them as having in  equity a right to a partition of the corporate assets when they have  none, and indulge the fiction that they have received and realized a  share of the profits of the company which in truth they have neither  received nor realized.”

“Thus, from every point of view, we are brought  irresistibly to the conclusion that neither under the Sixteenth  Amendment nor otherwise has Congress power to tax without apportionment a  true stock dividend made lawfully and in good faith, or the accumulated  profits behind it, as income of the stockholder.  The Revenue Act of  1916, insofar as it imposes a tax upon the stockholder because of such  dividend, contravenes the provisions of Article I, § 2, cl. 3, and  Article I, § 9, cl. 4, of the Constitution, and to this extent is  invalid notwithstanding the Sixteenth Amendment.”

Now, having read all that, you can volunteer to pay the taxes the IRS claims are owed. But you have no obligation to not sue them to get your money back, or any obligation to pay at all and can present the law and Supreme Court Case above to a Federal Judge under Federal Question Jurisdiction.

This was written years ago and Brokers should all pay the Broker Tax. If you become a Crypto Non-Profit, you could do things like teach people things like this instead of taking their Money for Market, and let them learn themselves from your Non-Profit. Then you take Donations, benefit from having an Audience with their own Holdings, who you can guide some of their Coins to your Projects, etc.

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Taxes
« on: July 08, 2022, 04:04:40 PM »

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Offline Tokenista - Rev. Sasha Van Kush

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Re: Taxes
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2022, 07:41:09 PM »
Also,
Just for everyone who wants as much information as possible, websites like Coinbase and everything, don't really Trigger the Government until you are Selling it and Buying it in $20,000+ amounts, and everyone should think of the general Money Laws as applying to moving Cryptocurrency. If you deposit $10,000 in your Bank from Coinbase, or anywhere, or you get $10,000 in cash through Western Union, or anywhere, they have to tell the FBI that $10,000+ just came through, it's called a "Suspicious Activity Report" and everyone has them, it's a formality kind of most of the time because so many Businesses deal in these kinds of Transactions, there are many many $10,000 Deposits and Withdrawals every day.

If you Cash out $10,000 go ahead and expect that a Suspicious Activity Report was filed.

And from what I remember, the Threshold for Investigations, announced by like the FBI or IRS or both, was $20,000 moving on Coinbase, or on a similar Website.

So the IRS isn't necessarily going to get involved even, before these people, unless you are trying to cheat them and filing with inaccuracies on purpose to pay less Taxes. They investigate you for those types of things. So when thinking about Reporting things for Taxes at all, sometimes it's ok that you forgot, or thought it was a negligible amount, or didn't understand, or weren't aware, it's ok with the IRS sometimes if you don't pay, as long as you aren't cheating them.

But do be aware of those Transaction amounts that may bring other Agencies in.

Offline Tokenista - Rev. Sasha Van Kush

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Re: Taxes
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2022, 04:04:00 AM »
When getting into the Argument of if something is Taxable, we can look at the basic concept, instead of going to Income and Revenue as Definitions, and look at the word "Money".

Some Courts have now put into wording, this exact concept, basically "Is Bitcoin Money?". And that is where we can start to have a Debate, is Gold Money, are Stocks or Bonds Money, are Foreign Currencies Money?

What is Money?

So we can start to look at Money, and Bitcoin, as being heavily reliant on Governance. This has usually been termed "Bitcoin is News Driven", but can be distilled to "Bitcoin heavily relies on being Banned, being talked about being Banned, being Accepted, and being talked about in the News". If we look at the Venezuelan Petro Dollar, it's lived and Died on the Oil Industry, and OPEC killed it by saying it wouldn't be accepted as a Certain type of asset. They might not have even meant it that way, and might have hoped it would have created a New System, but whatever the intention of OPEC, the fact that they wouldn't accept it a certain way in their system, it died.

Bitcoin is just as Driven by Arrests as it is by the Article about the guy who found his CPU at the dump with his Bitcoins on it. Bitcoin is driven by Governments owning Coins, look at El Salvador, which is something we can compare with Venezuela and see that El Salvador is doing it with General International Support, but the failure of Large Banks, and China, to understand Blockchain, because China is a lot of Earth, most of Earth's Population live in India and China. And India, while it would be inaccurate to just outright say something like "India has more poverty than China", India does have maybe more of a Problem with Industrialization, not having everyone logged on a Computer, the same way America still has problems with kids not having WiFi at home, but India has about half of Earth's Population, and China has about the other half.

But China, while having success with Justin Sun Technologies, has been put in a Position of holding Technologies which are kind of Centralized with Witnesses and Super Reps, so they are having to define themselves, they can't just point to ETH and say "It's basically that" because it's not. They went back to Java, and the Block Rewards are different, etc, etc. Graphene is also like this, new, with Witnesses. And China had to come into this Market, and argue with the people who created this and made it work, then they had to make it work themselves, during and after that.

So we can start to define "Money" probably in the way of Taxes, and keep that conversation about "Is it Money" in the Tax Law, and Case Law, and look at Point of Sale, the Point of Sale is where it becomes Money. Most Coins and Tokens have no Point of Sale, outside of Bitcoin, and some other new exchanges that have USD Pegged Coins to Cash out with. The Tax Law gets into Gifts, and Barter or other kind of Trades, and this should be where we look at "Is it Money" as an expanded Definition, where someone maybe will go to the Grocery store with you and Buy you Food if you give them your Proof of Stake Tokens, and you have those coming out in whatever amount or available from whatever Source, and you would rather do that than Cash out and do everything yourself for whatever reason. That's just a simple concept of it, but there could be entire Ubers based on this competing with them like Lyft, and that gets into Graphene Expansion, and uses for Graphene apart from Steemit Clones.

But when you are Trading Coins, I think with Taxes, it's safe to say it's not Money if:

1. You are Dealing in Altcoins that are extremely speculative, maybe New, etc. Altcoins shouldn't be considered Taxable income, because a Diverse Portfolio will benefit the Market, and many of the Coins may not work out, but the more you are invested in, the better. And you can buy in at $0.01, maybe $0.000001, so if you get lucky, and Buy a Coin that maybe is still Finding it's Value, which is a Fluctuation in Price, usually defined as a Bubble, early on, within a few years, and sometimes starting right away, but usually taking a few years to complete, where the Coin Finds it's Price, and sometimes as new Users come in, there are such large numbers of Buyers, that won't always be spending so much as they do in the Bubble, ever again. So you could maybe Buy in at $0.00001 and sell at $100.00, hypothetically. That's how Bitcoin, Litecoin, Ethereum and all those happened.

2. You Can't Buy anything with it. If you can't Trade it for Bitcoin even yet, like your Alt Token is listed for Sale for ETH or TRX, it shouldn't be considered Money. This could maybe also help put Definitions in the ICO Laws. Where if you are listing a Coin for Sale, you should make clear what it can be used for, what it is. Because it's not really Money, yet. If it gets listed all around Town, and everyone has a Wallet, maybe it's Money now. Maybe the City or Government wants their Taxes from everyone, because they don't need Bitcoin. They are going around Town Trading all day for Cryptocurrency.

This all then also gets into the Concept of is it Art or Money, because it is like a Song or Beat, and they are made under Creative Commons, or similar Licenses allowing Clones and Forks. And the Central Creator does not always have a Treasury, that's not always how it works. But I think if the. Central Treasury Concept could be better implemented, where the DAO and the Small Business, or Charter for a Town or Organization, are 1. The DAO is the PAC and Super PAC, the LLC, and that is easily accessible to be created, then we will start to see a lot more widespread adoption and understanding than there is now, with the same Decentralized Concepts existing, but having more Purpose, things for Sale, Markets for Products, ATMs, USD exchanging, etc. As the Decentralized becomes more like Money, the Money people can figure out the DAOs and start forming new ones.


Offline Tokenista - Rev. Sasha Van Kush

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Re: Taxes
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2022, 06:37:29 PM »
One thing that makes Cryptocurrency Taxes difficult, but shouldn't be too much of a problem for the Brokers, is that if I get BTC at $4,000 and it goes to $10,000 or $18,000 in 2017 whenever that was, then I pay Taxes with a Hypothetical like $5,000 BTC, I might have spent more than I can pay Taxes for in the Hundreds of Thousands or Millions of Dollar range, and now I'm trying to figure out Taxes because they are April, and in this Hypothetical I would owe maybe Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars to the IRS. This could happen in any Bubble, and it's a Bubble, that's what happened to people's Houses in the Housing Bubble.

So a Hypothetical Solution would be a Program that collects Taxes, maybe Insures Losses, and accepts Payments in various Currencies. This could be a TVL System on DeFi or Wells Fargo could build it, or PayPal, etc. But this is just an example, something that takes in Coins, an Automated Market Maker (AMM) where you don't get your Money back, it Tracks your Taxes owed and let's you pay any day of the Year, then it goes and the Coins are Locked, never to be seen by you again, but instead when Tax Season comes, it has prepared for you a Dollar amount equal to what you owe, with all of the History of your Trades, etc. There could be other Mechanisms built in, as this itself could be built on the PancakeSwap, SunSwap, UniSwap systems, but could also be made by anyone or a Tax Company, or a Bank, etc.

This gets into the different aspects of Time and Blockchain, if we look at Blockchain as a Technology instead of just a Currency, and we use the word Technology in a way that includes non-Electrical Devices. Like a Watch, if we look at Clockwork, it is based on the Sky. We can probably assume that most Clockwork started on Boats, and that there were Tools made to Navigate using the Sky, Stars, Planets, etc. We can see the Stories of the Odyssey, and the Iliad, even the Bible, as similar Devices, we can see this much more Clearly in Hanno the Navigator, who was a Navigator and so in our Consciousness it is much easier to understand Hanno the Navigator as a Story of Planets, Constellations and the Sky, as that is how Navigation worked.

So now, if we look at Blockchain from this perspective, and see the Clockwork, with the nNonce, the Genesis Block, Block Rate, and then from these other Systems are created. We see dApps, Sidechains, and all kinds of things built on this. We can see Jesus as being BC and AD, that is the general idea, being the Year of Our Lord 2022. Then for Computers there is Epoch Time, which is the Time they started a Historical Record kind of, like Pre-History and History. The Blockchains each should be viewed this way, as something that will exist for a long time, something people can learn and not have to lose their Financing, and have to figure out the next Source, there should be Blockchains that have these things in mind, Time, Years, Taxes, etc.

Bitcoin will end, it will continue being Mined for a long time and when the Fractions of Bitcoin called Satoshis were thought up, and began being used as a Term by Bitcoin Faucets, there was actually no need for that small of a value because Bitcoin was so Cheap. It has since become almost easier sometimes to look at the Satoshi Value and understand the USD amount. They then also realized Bitcoin would end, so some Blockchains actually launched in the Beginning branded as "We will continue Mining Bitcoin, and rewarding the Miners in our Coin, when that Day Comes". So as to perpetuate Bitcoin. But Bitcoin was Novel, no one had any experience with Blockchain, it was Novel. It was transactions between Wallets, on a Non-Government, Non-Corporate system, you could help hold open and earn from by Mining. We are basically now still in the Beginning and have a lot to do.

Offline alltalk

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Re: Taxes
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2022, 11:49:51 PM »
In fact, although many counties still don't legalize cryptocurrency, some other countries have thought about giving taxes to the crypto industry. This is hard enough because we must also pay for taxes moreover if we are using CEX in our own country, both for trading trasnactin or even withdrawal process. Taxes is really disturbing
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Offline mohdelayo

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Re: Taxes
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2022, 12:46:46 PM »
Government and regulatory bodies have constantly been putting efforts towards devising a cryptocurrency tax system, this is coming especially after it has been spelt out clearly to all and sundry that the technology is going nowhere, thus everyone gat to deal with it. The must difficult thing is however how to frame up and implement this tax system. I believe it will certainly come to play in time since we all must pay tax and contribute to various national development.

Offline Tokenista - Rev. Sasha Van Kush

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Re: Taxes
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2022, 02:32:00 PM »
Just to have this out there for the Benefit of all involved, it does seem recently the Secret Service has been watching Crypto, maybe it's a thing Joe Biden started, maybe they don't get it all yet. So I'm going to put this out there for the Benefit of everyone. First, the FBI was created because Napoleon's Great Great whatever Nephew was Attorney General in the United States and was using the Secret Service for Investigations, the Congress said "stop" and have them the Authority that eventually led to Hoover's FBI. Then, I would also have everyone look to Steve Jackson Games v. The Secret Service, in Texas, as a good starting point for kind of Crypto Tangent Legal Research.

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Re: Taxes
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2022, 02:32:00 PM »


Offline Tokenista - Rev. Sasha Van Kush

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Re: Taxes
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2023, 05:56:05 PM »
We will soon start doing various 501(c)(3) Blockchain Activities.

 

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