Gold and Bitcoin

[Peter90]

Hi Peter !
I heard you. Then the question is: what is the key goal of the project ?
Look, it turns out as follows: the population was given the opportunity through some convenient and accessible mechanism, to make some savings of their funds, and what is important - even increase their income, through the purchase of a minimum amount of gold. Great. But to get this accumulation, you can only under certain conditions - it is the withdrawal of savings, with a volume of 100 grams.

I will simulate the situation, of course, I warn you right away, I specially "distort" some indicators.
For example, the average income of the head of the family - 500 dollars (in terms of local currency). He has a family that he supports. Children are growing up, his wife brings up the children, his parents are still "on the balance sheet". He puts aside 50 dollars every month to buy gold in this system. I.e. 450 dollars remains in the family's budget and the prospect of benefiting from investing in gold.
According to my estimates - it turns out, in this scheme, he will be able to withdraw, sell and get fiat currency FOR LIFE, somewhere in: $6548 / 50 = 131 months or almost 11 years. Taking into account the commission and the cost of withdrawal - 11 years and 3 months. Until then, he CANNOT get his funds.  And he will get the amount equivalent to the value of gold in DOLLAR at that time (the gold market is valued in dollars). Here is the math problem - is it exactly profitable, or have I not understood how the system works ?

the second one

People don't buy gold-backed cryptos in order to bring home some piece of gold.
If someone wants to buy and bring home some bullion, they go to gold dealers, either locally or online.
Gold dealers sell bullion.
Gold-backed cryptos companies sell gold-backed cryptos.


„the population was given the opportunity ... But to get this accumulation, you can only under certain conditions - it is the withdrawal of savings, with a volume of 100 grams“

Why?
After buying 1 KAU one is the owner of 1 gram of gold.
One doesn’t need to redeem (withdraw) it in order to get that accumulation i.e. to become owner of that gold.



"According to my estimates ... 11 years and 3 months. Until then, he CANNOT get his funds."

Of course he can.
If he has a Kinesis account, he can sell his KAUs on the Kinesis exchange vs. whatever currency is available on that exchange.
Or he can open an account on exchanges where kinesis currencies get traded, and do the same.



"And he will get the amount equivalent to the value of gold in DOLLAR at that time (the gold market is valued in dollars)."

No. Indonesians will get the amount equivalent to the value of gold in rupee.
If I sell gold I receive €
If you go tomorrow to the bank and sell your gold you are only interested in the gold price in the currency of your country.
You don’t care about the $ price of gold.

[DrBeer]

....
the second one

People don't buy gold-backed cryptos in order to bring home some piece of gold.
If someone wants to buy and bring home some bullion, they go to gold dealers, either locally or online.
Gold dealers sell bullion.
Gold-backed cryptos companies sell gold-backed cryptos.

„the population was given the opportunity ... But to get this accumulation, you can only under certain conditions - it is the withdrawal of savings, with a volume of 100 grams“

Why?
After buying 1 KAU one is the owner of 1 gram of gold.
One doesn’t need to redeem (withdraw) it in order to get that accumulation i.e. to become owner of that gold.


"According to my estimates ... 11 years and 3 months. Until then, he CANNOT get his funds."

Of course he can.
If he has a Kinesis account, he can sell his KAUs on the Kinesis exchange vs. whatever currency is available on that exchange.
Or he can open an account on exchanges where kinesis currencies get traded, and do the same.


"And he will get the amount equivalent to the value of gold in DOLLAR at that time (the gold market is valued in dollars)."

No. Indonesians will get the amount equivalent to the value of gold in rupee.
If I sell gold I receive €
If you go tomorrow to the bank and sell your gold you are only interested in the gold price in the currency of your country.
You don’t care about the $ price of gold.

Then a couple more questions

1. Ok, everything is clear with the “withdrawal” of gold, in general it’s a login. If a token is backed by gold, it is essentially a virtual gold coin and this eliminates many questions. But there is another question What is the liquidity of this token? What am I talking about?
For example, today I bought 1 gram of gold, the price of gold on the world market (hereinafter all prices are conditional, for ease of calculation) - for 1 gram, let it be 60 dollars (rate 15,600 rupees / dollar). The purchase price in rupiah is 936,000 rupees. For example, 3 years have passed. The price of gold on the market is, say, 100 dollars/*gram, and the rupee is 20,000 rupees/dollar.

Can I sell this gold-backed token at the current price per gram? And get 2,000,000 rupees?


2. "You don't care about the $ price of gold." - on the one hand, yes, but we understand that the WORLD price of gold is formed in the dollar, and the price in Indonesia also has a direct connection with this price in the dollar. Yes, the public will not get a dollar, but the dollar price affects the rupee price.

[Peter90]

Then a couple more questions

1. Ok, everything is clear with the “withdrawal” of gold, in general it’s a login. If a token is backed by gold, it is essentially a virtual gold coin and this eliminates many questions. But there is another question What is the liquidity of this token? What am I talking about?
For example, today I bought 1 gram of gold, the price of gold on the world market (hereinafter all prices are conditional, for ease of calculation) - for 1 gram, let it be 60 dollars (rate 15,600 rupees / dollar). The purchase price in rupiah is 936,000 rupees. For example, 3 years have passed. The price of gold on the market is, say, 100 dollars/*gram, and the rupee is 20,000 rupees/dollar.

Can I sell this gold-backed token at the current price per gram? And get 2,000,000 rupees?


2. "You don't care about the $ price of gold." - on the one hand, yes, but we understand that the WORLD price of gold is formed in the dollar, and the price in Indonesia also has a direct connection with this price in the dollar. Yes, the public will not get a dollar, but the dollar price affects the rupee price.

Hi doc,

"everything is clear with the “withdrawal” of gold"

I understand what you mean but maybe other people don't, so it's better to use the proper term, redemption, in order to avoid misunderstandings.
With stablecoins backed by x: you ask for  x --> x exits the system --> the stablecoin must be canceled otherwise there would be a stablecoin in the system without backing.
This process is called redemption.
It concerns not only gold-backed SC but every kind of SC as long as they are backed by something.


"If a token is backed by gold, it is essentially a virtual gold coin"

Virtual gold coin... it's too generic for my ears 
KAUs are legal title of gold ownership recorded on the blockchain.


"For example, today I bought 1 gram of gold, the price of gold on the world market (hereinafter all prices are conditional, for ease of calculation) - for 1 gram, let it be 60 dollars (rate 15,600 rupees / dollar). The purchase price in rupiah is 936,000 rupees. For example, 3 years have passed. The price of gold on the market is, say, 100 dollars/*gram, and the rupee is 20,000 rupees/dollar.
Can I sell this gold-backed token at the current price per gram? And get 2,000,000 rupees?"

Of course
It's not that you can, rather you don't have another choice 
When you make a transaction, only the exchange rates of the moment of that transaction apply.

[DrBeer]

Then a couple more questions

1. Ok, everything is clear with the “withdrawal” of gold, in general it’s a login. If a token is backed by gold, it is essentially a virtual gold coin and this eliminates many questions. But there is another question What is the liquidity of this token? What am I talking about?
For example, today I bought 1 gram of gold, the price of gold on the world market (hereinafter all prices are conditional, for ease of calculation) - for 1 gram, let it be 60 dollars (rate 15,600 rupees / dollar). The purchase price in rupiah is 936,000 rupees. For example, 3 years have passed. The price of gold on the market is, say, 100 dollars/*gram, and the rupee is 20,000 rupees/dollar.

Can I sell this gold-backed token at the current price per gram? And get 2,000,000 rupees?


2. "You don't care about the $ price of gold." - on the one hand, yes, but we understand that the WORLD price of gold is formed in the dollar, and the price in Indonesia also has a direct connection with this price in the dollar. Yes, the public will not get a dollar, but the dollar price affects the rupee price.

Hi doc,

"everything is clear with the “withdrawal” of gold"

I understand what you mean but maybe other people don't, so it's better to use the proper term, redemption, in order to avoid misunderstandings.
With stablecoins backed by x: you ask for  x --> x exits the system --> the stablecoin must be canceled otherwise there would be a stablecoin in the system without backing.
This process is called redemption.
It concerns not only gold-backed SC but every kind of SC as long as they are backed by something.


"If a token is backed by gold, it is essentially a virtual gold coin"

Virtual gold coin... it's too generic for my ears 
KAUs are legal title of gold ownership recorded on the blockchain.


"For example, today I bought 1 gram of gold, the price of gold on the world market (hereinafter all prices are conditional, for ease of calculation) - for 1 gram, let it be 60 dollars (rate 15,600 rupees / dollar). The purchase price in rupiah is 936,000 rupees. For example, 3 years have passed. The price of gold on the market is, say, 100 dollars/*gram, and the rupee is 20,000 rupees/dollar.
Can I sell this gold-backed token at the current price per gram? And get 2,000,000 rupees?"

Of course
It's not that you can, rather you don't have another choice 
When you make a transaction, only the exchange rates of the moment of that transaction apply.

Instead of a thousand words, I will say one thing - I am heartily and sincerely happy for the residents of Indonesia that they have such a project realized ! And to you Peter90 thank you very much for bringing such information to this forum !

But one more question - is this system available for non-residents of Indonesia ? After receiving from you detailed answers to all questions that I was interested in, I would love to "participate" in this system ! If it's not a secret - are you a resident of Indonesia ? Or do you use this system ?

[Peter90]

But one more question - is this system available for non-residents of Indonesia ? After receiving from you detailed answers to all questions that I was interested in, I would love to "participate" in this system ! If it's not a secret - are you a resident of Indonesia ? Or do you use this system ?

Europe here! ... more precisely... eurozone   

I have a kinesis account, of course. I haven't used their app nor their virtual debit card though. I'm not that sophisticated...
I use them only for buying and storing: compared to local dealers and local banks, their spreads are extremely low, and compared to ETFs, there are no storage fees and their metal stocks get regularly audited.

You want to open an account, go to their website and sign in. It's free.
Actually I'd advise everybody who is not allergic to KYC to do it. Sign in and look around, maybe you'll like it.
Maybe you'll find something useful, who knows.

A couple of days ago a user commented on the Kinesis exchange. I hope he will follow up.
If you open an account I'm interested in your impression - bad or good is irrelevant.
If you click on the affiliate link in my signature you'll land on their sign-in page, there are no downsides in using my affiliate link.

[DrBeer]

But one more question - is this system available for non-residents of Indonesia ? After receiving from you detailed answers to all questions that I was interested in, I would love to "participate" in this system ! If it's not a secret - are you a resident of Indonesia ? Or do you use this system ?

Europe here! ... more precisely... eurozone   

I have a kinesis account, of course. I haven't used their app nor their virtual debit card though. I'm not that sophisticated...
I use them only for buying and storing: compared to local dealers and local banks, their spreads are extremely low, and compared to ETFs, there are no storage fees and their metal stocks get regularly audited.

You want to open an account, go to their website and sign in. It's free.
Actually I'd advise everybody who is not allergic to KYC to do it. Sign in and look around, maybe you'll like it.
Maybe you'll find something useful, who knows.

A couple of days ago a user commented on the Kinesis exchange. I hope he will follow up.
If you open an account I'm interested in your impression - bad or good is irrelevant.
If you click on the affiliate link in my signature you'll land on their sign-in page, there are no downsides in using my affiliate link.

Thank you again for the very interesting and useful information. I’ll try to register this week, see what the service offers to non-residents of the country, conditions, opportunities. After that I will publish my report here. Well, I’ll try to buy gold - I’ll invest in the economy of the country, which I really liked, at least as a tourist
Well, if everything works out, I can periodically report on the balance and the results of transactions with tokenized gold

[Peter90]

Thank you again for the very interesting and useful information. I’ll try to register this week, see what the service offers to non-residents of the country, conditions, opportunities. After that I will publish my report here. Well, I’ll try to buy gold - I’ll invest in the economy of the country, which I really liked, at least as a tourist
Well, if everything works out, I can periodically report on the balance and the results of transactions with tokenized gold

Hi doc,
Kinesis is not an Indonesian company, so your residency is just as irrelevant as mine 
Their headquarters are in Australia, I think, but they have offices all around the world, in the cities where they have their vaults.

They happen to have a partnership with the Indonesian government.
The Indonesian gov is promoting nation-wide an app called Pospay.

Pospay has nothing to do with Kinesis. Pospay is an app of the Indonesian government.
BUT: within Pospay KAUs can be bought, sold and sent.

Only residents in Indonesia can register into Pospay.
You don't want to register in Pospay. You want to register in Kinesis 

I always talk about Indonesia because what the partnership between Kinesis and the Indonesian gov is yielding is a good example for what gold-backed stablecoins can do in order to improve the conditions or the ordinary people of a country.
But Kinesis is not an Indonesian project.


That said, it would be great if you just open an account for fun and then report here your first impressions.
Very curious me
I hear their support is good - in case you have problems with KYC - but I don't know whether they support your national language

[DrBeer]

Thank you again for the very interesting and useful information. I’ll try to register this week, see what the service offers to non-residents of the country, conditions, opportunities. After that I will publish my report here. Well, I’ll try to buy gold - I’ll invest in the economy of the country, which I really liked, at least as a tourist
Well, if everything works out, I can periodically report on the balance and the results of transactions with tokenized gold

Hi doc,
....
That said, it would be great if you just open an account for fun and then report here your first impressions.
Very curious me
I hear their support is good - in case you have problems with KYC - but I don't know whether they support your national language

Registered on the exchange. Registered. Passed verification. There were no restrictions, at least for Ukraine. Very nice and fast interface, convenient registration/verification system. I am waiting for the results, I will share my impressions on the system.

I can "in return" share a project from Ukraine. Of course, it is not about gold, but about a product that is no less in demand - food products, agro-sector. I have a separate topic on this product in another section
https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=318076.0

The essence of the project - A large agricultural holding with 2000 hectares of land, attracts investment in business development through its token. In essence, each token is a "digital share". Entry threshold - from 1USDT. I myself checked the project for a long time before investing. Since February 2023, I have been investing, traveling, checking the work, and getting to know the owners.
The scheme is extremely simple. On each token, once a quarter is charged 75% of the net income of the agroholding. The amount of dividends per 1 token = total net income of the company for the quarter / total amount of tokens sold.
They keep 25% of the net profit for themselves. The basis of the business is industrial greenhouses, currently about 20 pcs. Now they are developing a mushroom business - built and put into operation, growing mycelium. In the plans - increasing greenhouse areas, as well as the development of "vertical" cultivation (already purchased equipment). At the above link - my live photo reports. Perhaps also interested

[Peter90]

The essence of the project - A large agricultural holding with 2000 hectares of land, attracts investment in business development through its token. In essence, each token is a "digital share". Entry threshold - from 1USDT. I myself checked the project for a long time before investing. Since February 2023, I have been investing, traveling, checking the work, and getting to know the owners.
The scheme is extremely simple. On each token, once a quarter is charged 75% of the net income of the agroholding. The amount of dividends per 1 token = total net income of the company for the quarter / total amount of tokens sold.
They keep 25% of the net profit for themselves. The basis of the business is industrial greenhouses, currently about 20 pcs. Now they are developing a mushroom business - built and put into operation, growing mycelium. In the plans - increasing greenhouse areas, as well as the development of "vertical" cultivation (already purchased equipment). At the above link - my live photo reports. Perhaps also interested

I'm interested in the "digital share" part.
This is not crowdfunding - as in the latter, I think, one doesn't expect a return.
This is, as you rightly define it, something like a company share.

I opened a thread about the benefits of cryptocurrencies for society. I see so many crypto people here consider cryptocurrencies only as a way to make money, I'm rather focused on how cryptos can improve society.

Beside trading, what's the point of cryptos for ordinary people and businesses?


Could you go over there and share this experience?

Why did they choose to use blockchain?
What are the advantages of using a token? instead of asking for a bank credit?

Will they pay the "dividends" using a crypto too?

Do they plan to use blockchain only for financial transactions or in other ways too?

You can copy this post and paste it over in that thread, together with your reply

[Peter90]

Registered on the exchange. Registered. Passed verification. There were no restrictions, at least for Ukraine. Very nice and fast interface, convenient registration/verification system.

Happy to hear that
I have an account only with kinesis so I can't compare it with other companies.
I think the most interesting part for you will be the exchange

[DrBeer]

Registered on the exchange. Registered. Passed verification. There were no restrictions, at least for Ukraine. Very nice and fast interface, convenient registration/verification system.

Happy to hear that
I have an account only with kinesis so I can't compare it with other companies.
I think the most interesting part for you will be the exchange

I had a little difficulty in passing the identification, they demanded additional documents, like payment for utilities
I submitted documents - driver's license, maybe this is the reason. But I don't see any problems, I will provide additional documents, the project is worth the effort and identification

[DrBeer]

The essence of the project - A large agricultural holding with 2000 hectares of land, attracts investment in business development through its token. In essence, each token is a "digital share". Entry threshold - from 1USDT. I myself checked the project for a long time before investing. Since February 2023, I have been investing, traveling, checking the work, and getting to know the owners.
The scheme is extremely simple. On each token, once a quarter is charged 75% of the net income of the agroholding. The amount of dividends per 1 token = total net income of the company for the quarter / total amount of tokens sold.
They keep 25% of the net profit for themselves. The basis of the business is industrial greenhouses, currently about 20 pcs. Now they are developing a mushroom business - built and put into operation, growing mycelium. In the plans - increasing greenhouse areas, as well as the development of "vertical" cultivation (already purchased equipment). At the above link - my live photo reports. Perhaps also interested

I'm interested in the "digital share" part.
This is not crowdfunding - as in the latter, I think, one doesn't expect a return.
This is, as you rightly define it, something like a company share.

I opened a thread about the benefits of cryptocurrencies for society. I see so many crypto people here consider cryptocurrencies only as a way to make money, I'm rather focused on how cryptos can improve society.

Beside trading, what's the point of cryptos for ordinary people and businesses?


Could you go over there and share this experience?

Why did they choose to use blockchain?
What are the advantages of using a token? instead of asking for a bank credit?

Will they pay the "dividends" using a crypto too?

Do they plan to use blockchain only for financial transactions or in other ways too?

You can copy this post and paste it over in that thread, together with your reply

Hi Peter90 !
1. Yes, I will gladly share an example of a real example of combining cryptocurrencies and real business, an example really worthy of attention, at least - in my opinion.
2. Why AGTI chose cryptocurrency/token. They have an English version as well, but I'm not sure all the information is there. And so - why chose token instead of classical means of attracting investments ?
The answer is simple, though somewhat unpleasant..... The company tried to raise funds through banks and investment funds.  But... the attractiveness of their land bank, which is 2000 hectares of fertile land with very accessible water, which is critical for the agricultural sector, began to cause "unhealthy interest" of some individuals with "strong connections". As a result - having made investments, some people tried to sabotage the work of the company to lead it to bankruptcy, and through the bankruptcy procedure, in fact, to take away this land as a collateralized property.
After we managed to get rid of such investors and their money, the owners made a decision, and turned their eyes to the scheme that was realized. They evaluated the company's assets. They developed a smart contract and all related services, and released the token on the market through their own mechanisms. Yes, there are certain conditions, for example, the token is now in a locked state, but investors receive dividends regularly every quarter, I can personally confirm this. This year the token will be unlocked and released on several exchanges (contracts have already been signed).

On the basis of AGTI token we are currently developing a hybrid smart network AGTInw, which will be additional channels of profit, I am also involved as an ideologist of part of the solutions and developer

[Peter90]

After we managed to get rid of such investors and their money, the owners made a decision, and turned their eyes to the scheme that was realized.

Thanks doc, just a quick note
I've seen you referring to your project using the word "scheme".
I'm not an English native speaker but I think that word has a bad connotation. A scheme is something mischievous, a cheating plan, like in "Ponzi scheme".
I'd use "structure", or something else

[DrBeer]

After we managed to get rid of such investors and their money, the owners made a decision, and turned their eyes to the scheme that was realized.

Thanks doc, just a quick note
I've seen you referring to your project using the word "scheme".
I'm not an English native speaker but I think that word has a bad connotation. A scheme is something mischievous, a cheating plan, like in "Ponzi scheme".
I'd use "structure", or something else

Peter90 hi ! 
Thanks for the good point, I'll correct it to "Business Model", that's probably more correct. As it happens, English is not my native language, and I don't often communicate in English-speaking society to know such nuances of perception of some words. Although in my language, the word "scheme" can be perceived very ambiguously !

Regarding Kinesis - submitted additional documents, verification from 24 to 72 hours, waiting, I will inform you what happens. But what is important - at the first stage - no restrictions and "screening" by country/citizenship

[Peter90]

So, my question is, for those of you that actually have good knowledge about Bitcoin and gold, which will you love to invest in, and what is your reason for choosing the asset?

Many people consider BTC a safe heaven, like gold.
That's why they call BTC "digital gold".

A safe heaven is an asset that saves you when the economy and the financial markets collapse.





If BTC behaves like Nasdaq it's not a safe heaven.
BTC is not digital gold.