Does crypto currency can save the economy?

[Peter90]

2. "It is estimated that 70-80% of all Indonesian citizens are unbanked or underbanked." - ok, a real problem. But can I clarify - what are the CAUSES of this state of affairs ? Leaving aside the specific problem of interest aversion, according to the creed, banking services are not only interest on loans. It is primarily banking transactions - from payroll to payments.  What is the problem with that ?

Well maybe the cause is simply that there parts of that country that are not enough developed yet.
In my country too, when I was younger, there were underdeveloped regions.

3. "Not being able to save safely". There is a subtle issue here. Saving money, if we are talking about inflation, is in a sense getting .... additional interest from the growth of the value of some asset, by means of which a person tries to compensate for the loss of value, for example, of the local currency. Isn't that contrary to the religious canons? Please do not take this as an attempt to "play on religious feelings", just a really contradictory nuance, at least for me.

Saving - protecting your purchasing power - by getting interest on capital can be contrary to religious canons. For example it was contrary to Christianism until 1500.
Saving through precious metals is something different and AFAIK is not contrary to any religion.

Usually shariah prohibit cryptocurrencies.
Kinesis' gold-backed stablecoins have been accepted as shariah compliant, because saving and transacting gold is permitted by Islam.


The problem for those people in Indonesia are...
where can you buy (and sell) precious metals?
Buy/sell spreads can be huge.
Keeping precious metals at home?
Etc.
By the way, you cannot use those pieces of metals in order to buy things. Not under normal circumstances.

All these problems are solved through gold-backed stablecoins.
Saving, protecting the purchasing power of one own wealth, in a safe and simple way, is a huge benefit for ordinary people.
Will it have an impact on the local economy? I think so!

[Peter90]

4. Is cross-border payments really such a big problem for Indonesian residents ? Perhaps it's just the banking system is "really greedy" ? I have in Ukraine, cross-border transfers, the cost of these services is quite in line with your expectations.

The second issue is the cost of transactions in the network for example bitcoin. Let's be honest - I do not think that there will be a mass need for ordinary people to transfer amounts of tens of thousands of dollars. Most likely it will be in the range of 50-500 dollars. And here is the problem - the cost of the transaction can be commensurate with the transfer itself, and this has no effect on the network load.

As I quoted in my previous posting, over 6% is the average cost for cross-border transfers.
For people who aren't very wealthy and have to sustain their families, are huge transfer costs!

The second issue is the cost of transactions in the network for example bitcoin. Let's be honest - I do not think that there will be a mass need for ordinary people to transfer amounts of tens of thousands of dollars. Most likely it will be in the range of 50-500 dollars. And here is the problem - the cost of the transaction can be commensurate with the transfer itself, and this has no effect on the network load.

Those migrant workers cannot risk of losing money because of BTC volatility.
They would be forced to buy BTC, send, and their families to convert those BTC as quick as possible back into fiat.
That means costs.
Plus - during the process - they would have the volatility risk.
50-500$ are huge sums for them!

[Peter90]

Another reason why cryptocurrency won't be able to help is trivial - most likely the government will simply not allow the realization of a parallel financial system that the government can't control.

Well, in Indonesia we have that covered    as Kinesis is cooperating with the Indonesian government.

In the Kinesis thread I quoted Kinesis last Quarterly Report.
Take a look at the paragraph "Indonesia"

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

I think the possibility of the economic system of a poor country being elevated depends on the resources of the country. Even if Bitcoin or crypto currency can help in any little way, the country must have very great resources that can aid in generating good revenue for the country. For example, there are some countries that have some natural resources, such as crude oil and gold, as well as very fine soil and enough free land for commercial agriculturagricultural purpose and the cultivation of farm produce.

If there is no means by which citizens can earn money from jobs, businesses, or other legal means, then no one will have money to invest in crypto currency. People need to work before they can generate enough money to be able to serve their needs, and they will still have some to invest. If there is no job or any means by which citizens of a country can generate a good income forthemselves, that means people in such a country will likely not be financially stable and will not think of making any investment because their primary needs at that moment will be food, shelter, and clothing.

[Peter90]

PS You know, previously, while my country was at peace, I traveled often and a lot, including being in the beautiful country of .... Indonesia So I didn't get the feeling that banking services are underdeveloped or underutilized. ATM, card payments - everything was available and I used it without any problems.

I'm going into the Indonesia Section of this forum and BEG for someone there to come here and tell us how it is 

[Sim_card]

It is impossible for cryptocurrency to improve the economy of a poor country, this is because cryptocurrency is not human and cannot think or know the situation or level of poverty that is in the country. Cryptocurrency is volatile in nature and any country that diversify the country's funds into bitcoin, because I believe that it is only bitcoin that the value increases with time line, will have to wait for maybe 20yrs-30yrs before the investment can help the country's economy. It is only the government of a country that can change the economy of a country by using the resources of the country wisely to generate income for the country. Corruption is what has made some countries poor due to bad government that are not ready to sacrifice for the development of the country. The embezzle public funds and leave in country economy to crash without thinking on how to help the economy. A good government will manage the resources of the country to generate revenue and grow the economy, no matter how small their natural resources is. El Salvador has adopted bitcoin as a legal tender but nothing has changed yet. Their bitcoin reserve is only increasing in value. Argentina is another country that we are looking out to see how their economy will be like through the adoption of bitcoin by the new president.

[DrBeer]

PS You know, previously, while my country was at peace, I traveled often and a lot, including being in the beautiful country of .... Indonesia So I didn't get the feeling that banking services are underdeveloped or underutilized. ATM, card payments - everything was available and I used it without any problems.

I'm going into the Indonesia Section of this forum and BEG for someone there to come here and tell us how it is 

I'm glad to return to the dialogue again, after a forced pause

1. Yes, the opinion and real description of the situation of people living in the territory we are discussing is the most valuable information, because it reflects reality!

2. To continue the substantive conversation, I went to study what Kinesis is I read the information on the site and looked at the description. I have a general picture but no details.
I also found some information about cryptocurrency and its status in Indonesia, for example this https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/01/25/indonesia-regulatory-switch-could-see-crypto-classed-as-securities -not-commodities/

So far I have a picture:
- cryptocurrency in Indonesia is not an official means of payment
- cryptocurrency is considered a kind of commodity and financial surrogate, and is not prohibited
- Indonesia has a fairly loyal policy towards crypto exchanges and crypto traders.
- Kinesis is a kind of bridge that works between the fiat and crypto markets. I saw something similar in the form of the PundiX project. True, the solution there is more tailored to accepting cryptocurrency payments from the population, to pay for goods in an ordinary store. I haven’t found any information on how the Kinesis mechanisms are actually implemented, I can only guess. The topic of gold and silver seemed a little strange to me, because I couldn’t understand - how is this gold and silver actually secured?

[EluguHcman]

Crypto currencies can save the economy at where either crisis of war or government structural aided designs tends to frustrate the world with their selfish decisions at where it could affect individual resources and sources of incomes.
The possibilities that crytop can safe the world from and economic downturn is strickly based on its decentralized and the custodian digitalized systems with the P2P transactions technological systems.
In the crytop space, Investors digital assets are secured and unaffected by the said crisis without the loosing any of its potnetials such as the volatilities of the pros and the cons where its investors would still make counts to profitabilities even while the ongoing crisis.

[DrBeer]

It is impossible for cryptocurrency to improve the economy of a poor country, this is because cryptocurrency is not human and cannot think or know the situation or level of poverty that is in the country. Cryptocurrency is volatile in nature and any country that diversify the country's funds into bitcoin, because I believe that it is only bitcoin that the value increases with time line, will have to wait for maybe 20yrs-30yrs before the investment can help the country's economy. It is only the government of a country that can change the economy of a country by using the resources of the country wisely to generate income for the country. Corruption is what has made some countries poor due to bad government that are not ready to sacrifice for the development of the country. The embezzle public funds and leave in country economy to crash without thinking on how to help the economy. A good government will manage the resources of the country to generate revenue and grow the economy, no matter how small their natural resources is. El Salvador has adopted bitcoin as a legal tender but nothing has changed yet. Their bitcoin reserve is only increasing in value. Argentina is another country that we are looking out to see how their economy will be like through the adoption of bitcoin by the new president.

Corruption... They talk about it a lot, it is discussed often... The government, deputies, security forces are blamed for it... Yes, anyone!
But the main problem is that corruption, sad as it may sound, is generated and supported by us ourselves. But we consider our actions “forced” or normal
And most importantly, do not confuse corruption with kleptomania, trivial theft and impunity (due to corruption) at the highest echelon of power or “ordinary clerks”. These are slightly different entities, although they bring trouble to the population in the same way...

[Peter90]

So far I have a picture:
- cryptocurrency in Indonesia is not an official means of payment
- cryptocurrency is considered a kind of commodity and financial surrogate, and is not prohibited
- Indonesia has a fairly loyal policy towards crypto exchanges and crypto traders.

"Indonesia’s central bank prohibits the use of cryptocurrencies ... as legal payment instruments.
However, Indonesian regulators have not blocked cryptocurrency transactions."

https://btcpeers.com/legality-of-dogecoin-countries-where-it-is-banned-or-restricted/


Hi doctor,
In Indonesia cryptos cannot be used as means of payment.
The Indonesian gov is promoting an app - PosPay - through their postal office network.
With PosPay people can... pay 

PosPay Gold is one of the functionalities of PosPay.
Through Pospay Gold the Indonesian gov is giving to the Indonesians the option of buying, selling and sending gold at extremely low cost and with the easiness of a smartphone.

KAUs aren't considered as a cryptocurrency but as a commodity (i.e. as gold).
This has facilitated the integration of KAUs into PosPay, also because Indonesia is a muslim country and there are scholars who consider cryptocurrencies non-compliant with Shariah.

[0t3p0t]

In third world country we can see that many are suffering from poverty and desire financial freedom. After cryptocurrency had been discovered it is now became the center of attraction and a country like Cambodia is now adopting bitcoin and built its own blockchain with its digital currency-like called bakong.

I believe such adoption is for the fact that there is more chance of making profit while leading the country into a modern way of payment system. What I'm thinking, even they have such opportunity for profit and modernization we can't deny the fact that losing could also be their future since crypto currency is volatile.

Do you think cryptocurrency can elevates the economy of a poor country despite its volatility.

Cryptocurrency plays an important role in elevating the economy of a poor country despite it's volatility by providing jobs to those who are unemployed as long as they are taking part into it. Unemployment rate is one of the third world countries government a problem aside from it being corrupt. Cryptocurrency brought a lot of opportunities for less fortunate people to have the chance to achieve financial freedom through it.

[Peter90]

So far I have a picture:
- Kinesis is a kind of bridge that works between the fiat and crypto markets.

KAUs are proof of ownership of gold (and KAGs are proof of ownership of silver...)

When you buy an apartment, there is a paper signed by you, the seller and usually some state official.
That piece of paper is the proof that you are the owner of that apartment.

Currently you own 200 shares of Microsoft. Of that there are digital records in the bank's servers ... in your computer... you can print those documents, than you have a paper record too.
These records are your proof of ownership of those 200 shares.

1 KAU is the proof of ownership of 1 gram of gold.
That digital record lies on the blockchain.

The difference with the other two examples is that those other two read "DrBeer is the owner of apartment x" and "DrBeer is the owner of 200 Microsoft shares" while this last one reads "1 gram of gold stored in one of Kinesis' vaults belongs to wallet y"


I wouldn't call KAUs "a bridge that works between the fiat and crypto markets"

I prefer to call them a bridge between blockchain and gold bars

[yohananaomi]

Cryptocurrency plays an important role in elevating the economy of a poor country despite it's volatility by providing jobs to those who are unemployed as long as they are taking part into it. Unemployment rate is one of the third world countries government a problem aside from it being corrupt. Cryptocurrency brought a lot of opportunities for less fortunate people to have the chance to achieve financial freedom through it.

As long as the progress of crypto is for good purposes, it will provide an opportunity for those who want to use it to earn income, although you must always anticipate situations that might turn around because we know that crypto is very unstable and continues to change. If you speculate, it will have a bad impact on you. who do not prepare knowledge about crypto properly.But in principle, I agree that with the existence of crypto for poor and developing countries, there is an impact on the economy that can be absorbed by taking advantage of crypto developments.

[DrBeer]

So far I have a picture:
- cryptocurrency in Indonesia is not an official means of payment
- cryptocurrency is considered a kind of commodity and financial surrogate, and is not prohibited
- Indonesia has a fairly loyal policy towards crypto exchanges and crypto traders.

"Indonesia’s central bank prohibits the use of cryptocurrencies ... as legal payment instruments.
However, Indonesian regulators have not blocked cryptocurrency transactions."

https://btcpeers.com/legality-of-dogecoin-countries-where-it-is-banned-or-restricted/


Hi doctor,
In Indonesia cryptos cannot be used as means of payment.
The Indonesian gov is promoting an app - PosPay - through their postal office network.
With PosPay people can... pay 

PosPay Gold is one of the functionalities of PosPay.
Through Pospay Gold the Indonesian gov is giving to the Indonesians the option of buying, selling and sending gold at extremely low cost and with the easiness of a smartphone.

KAUs aren't considered as a cryptocurrency but as a commodity (i.e. as gold).
This has facilitated the integration of KAUs into PosPay, also because Indonesia is a muslim country and there are scholars who consider cryptocurrencies non-compliant with Shariah.

Hi Peter90 !
Yes, the full picture is now available. Blockchain has essentially become the "barn book" and "bridge" where transactions between citizens, assets and official payment systems are recorded. Well done, good solution. I am very happy that the people of Indonesia have a mechanism to secure and increase their savings !

PS Regarding the peculiarities of religious views - I have always wondered how cryptocurrencies with their commissions/staking and other nuances contrary to religious canons will be accepted in the Muslim world. The solution is extremely simple - don't consider it money !  

[Peter90]

True, the solution there is more tailored to accepting cryptocurrency payments from the population, to pay for goods in an ordinary store. I haven’t found any information on how the Kinesis mechanisms are actually implemented, I can only guess.

Hi doctor
Do you know the inner mechanisms of your bank?
Does it prevent you from using it?

That said, I don't know what do you mean with Kinesis mechanisms actually. I can only tell you this is a question professionals don't care about.
Professionals care only about Kinesis' currencies being 100% backed up by gold and silver.
Audits take care of that.

Metals come from Kinesis' liquidity providers: they are precious metals wholesalers.

You can buy KAUs and KAGs - or fractions of them - on the kinesis exchange - using fiat or crypto -, or you can get them sent to you by your girlfriend or by selling something to another kinesis user.

With kinesis' virtual debit card you can pay at point of sale with your gold and silver: kinesis has financial partners - don't ask me for details or inner mechanisms - that while you stay at Starbucks convert on the fly 0,2 of the KAGs that you have in your kinesis account into 5 $.. €... Y... whatever fiat currency that Starbucks store needs.
Kinesis virtual debit card is accepted where Mastercard is accepted.
Starbucks' cashier gets paid.
You drink your cappuccino.
You don't need a bank account.


Kinesis Virtual Card - Everything you need to know