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Wider Crypto World => Gambling & Crypto Casinos => Gambling discussion => Topic started by: laijsica on September 09, 2024, 12:08:32 PM

Title: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: laijsica on September 09, 2024, 12:08:32 PM
Many people compare short-term investing to gambling, which leaves me wondering how true this really is. But I am not willing to compare short term investing with gambling.

Gambling is one of the means of entertainment where people spend their time and have fun but excessive addiction causes huge loss of gambler's wealth and he loses periodically but limited resources and time can greatly reduce his loss.

Short term investment through currency selection and investing accordingly is very risky but choosing the right currency and making the investment decision accordingly is very important for an investor. Many investors are making huge profits by picking the right currency and will continue to get richer because they prioritize early buying and diversify their investments short-term or long-term when a stack is formed.

In conclusion I can say that gambling is one of the means of entertainment and it is not only a means of earning money as many try to present it differently. On the other hand, short-term or trading is a popular way of making money that keeps money flowing in the market.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: _act_ on September 09, 2024, 01:04:49 PM
In conclusion I can say that gambling is one of the means of entertainment and it is not only a means of earning money as many try to present it differently. On the other hand, short-term or trading is a popular way of making money that keeps money flowing in the market.
Short term investment is not trading. Or you want to talk about swing trading.. investing for a year can be seen as short term investment. Trading for 1 month is swing trading if you leave the trade open in a trade.

Trading is entertaining but not a way of making money. You can eventually win but consider trading as a means of entertaining yourself and losing money.

Short term investment on wrong coins or at wrong time is very risky.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: bitbit97 on September 09, 2024, 03:41:57 PM
I find it incorrect to compare and say that they are the same thing if we talk about gambling and investing (no matter if it is short or long term investing). When you gamble and lose, you lose all your money, when you invest into something, there is a chance to sell back assets and get something back. It might be nothing, but still it is more than a zero. People try to achieve different goals with gambling and investing. You cant invest for fun, and you cant place a long term bet and become rich the more you wait.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Stompix on September 09, 2024, 04:09:15 PM
Short term investment through currency selection and investing accordingly is very risky but choosing the right currency and making the investment decision accordingly is very important for an investor. Many investors are making huge profits by picking the right currency and will continue to get richer because they prioritize early buying and diversify their investments short-term or long-term when a stack is formed.

You've just got the definition of putting the bet on the right team at the right moment! Short time investing in low-cap coins is gambling, no amount of knowledge or research would be able to guarantee you anything, you choose the wrong time to invest and the wrong coin is like picking a bet with your eyes closed!
Crypto traders just hate the idea of being compared to gamblers because of their ego, but in reality, all they do is the same, if it were any different you would hear true success stories from daily trading, not hundreds of horror stories where wanna be traders get their positions wiped in seconds.

Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: target on September 09, 2024, 04:15:14 PM
If there are people who thought of it that way, they really made it very simple in a way that you win some or lose some as a result of luck especially because its a short term crypto investment just like buying some coins and sell them after a week.

I would see it that way too if you tend to do this. Anyone who does it this way is risking more but I'm sure he will not sell in loss too and will end up holding a little longer.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Agbe on September 09, 2024, 07:21:04 PM
I find it incorrect to compare and say that they are the same thing if we talk about gambling and investing (no matter if it is short or long term investing). When you gamble and lose, you lose all your money, when you invest into something, there is a chance to sell back assets and get something back. It might be nothing, but still it is more than a zero. People try to achieve different goals with gambling and investing. You cant invest for fun, and you cant place a long term bet and become rich the more you wait.

I know that there are some patterns and logical approach to crypto but let's tell ourselves the trutth they are technically the same thing and my reason for saying that is because you are guessing the price direction of a particular crypto currency which undulates or fluctuates due to several factors, that is also gambling because anything can happen at the end of the day. Everyone has their preference, some sports betting analyst will never go crypto and some crypto experts wouldn't try sports betting, just do what works for you
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Igebotz on September 09, 2024, 08:32:51 PM
Many people compare short-term investing to gambling, which leaves me wondering how true this really is. But I am not willing to compare short term investing with gambling.

Gambling is one of the means of entertainment where people spend their time and have fun but excessive addiction causes huge loss of gambler's wealth and he loses periodically but limited resources and time can greatly reduce his loss.

Short term investment through currency selection and investing accordingly is very risky but choosing the right currency and making the investment decision accordingly is very important for an investor. Many investors are making huge profits by picking the right currency and will continue to get richer because they prioritize early buying and diversify their investments short-term or long-term when a stack is formed.

In conclusion I can say that gambling is one of the means of entertainment and it is not only a means of earning money as many try to present it differently. On the other hand, short-term or trading is a popular way of making money that keeps money flowing in the market.

Because I gamble for fun, and short-term crypto investments cannot provide the same level of pleasure, I will always prefer gambling. Even though we often advise people not to gamble for the purpose of making money, it is still possible, especially if a gambler is lucky, to make money from gambling.  One of the advantages of gambling is that it can result in quick and unexpected wins. However, this should not be the basis for engaging in gambling.

In my opinion, both can be risky and dangerous, but with proper research, it becomes easier to mitigate the risks in gambling and make better informed decisions. In the crypto market, a variety of factors influence it, and rates are determined by these market forces, which means that profit is not guaranteed. Thus, I will be content to have fun gambling rather than investing in the short-term crypto market. 
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: electronicash on September 09, 2024, 08:52:28 PM

there is a big difference to gambling and investing even if its just short term. the platform they are to be executed are very different already but many of us must have have been gambling while investing at the same time since we intend not to lose in gambling and if we accumulate more sats and tokens in winning from casinos i guess that is sort of betting that the token will also have a good value in the future.

in a way you gamble when you invest. if you risk your money investing in ICO being an early investor. its a gamble.  ;D
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Baofeng on September 09, 2024, 09:54:20 PM
I don't think that we can compare gambling and short term crypto investment. And I don't know how you can make big money in being a trader to be honest. Yeah, others might have succeeded already. But it will take some time for them to learn how to trade.

As compare to gambling, there are no learning specially if you choose to play luck base games. But the odds are pretty much stack against you, house always win. The only time that you will win is that if you are very lucky, but then you need to get out before your luck runs out.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Zed0X on September 09, 2024, 11:44:36 PM
Many people compare short-term investing to gambling, which leaves me wondering how true this really is. But I am not willing to compare short term investing with gambling.
~
You are probably mixing short-term investments to degen investments. Although the latter is usually done on short-term basis, it's still different from the former. The main difference is the type of coin/token invested in. In degen, they are the typical projects with zero to little use case, no solid plan, and all talk. You are shooting in the dark which is basically similar to gambling.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Rubel007 on September 10, 2024, 03:36:42 AM
There is no way to think of gambling and trading on the same level. Both have different characteristics. Even if a trader is temporarily at a loss in trading, he can recover by holding it. But a gambler has no such advantage. Although many people bring up the issue of luck in trading and gambling but I would advise them that good analysis and skill can be profitable in trading where skill is given more priority than luck. Those who gamble must take risks. Here the chances of winning and losing are equal. Gambling should be conducted with as much as one can afford to lose.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: bitterguy28 on September 10, 2024, 05:29:38 AM
Although many people bring up the issue of luck in trading and gambling but I would advise them that good analysis and skill can be profitable in trading where skill is given more priority than luck.
in my opinion any amount of luck is welcomed both in gambling and trading however if you just rely on luck all the time with trading, most likely you are going to find yourself with too much losses than you would want

with gambling luck is all there is to rely on so you really have no choice even if you try to be ‘good’ at it, in the end luck is still the deciding factor
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: SmartGold01 on September 10, 2024, 09:49:06 AM
Many people compare short-term investing to gambling, which leaves me wondering how true this really is. But I am not willing to compare short term investing with gambling.

Gambling is one of the means of entertainment where people spend their time and have fun but excessive addiction causes huge loss of gambler's wealth and he loses periodically but limited resources and time can greatly reduce his loss.

Short term investment through currency selection and investing accordingly is very risky but choosing the right currency and making the investment decision accordingly is very important for an investor. Many investors are making huge profits by picking the right currency and will continue to get richer because they prioritize early buying and diversify their investments short-term or long-term when a stack is formed.

In conclusion I can say that gambling is one of the means of entertainment and it is not only a means of earning money as many try to present it differently. On the other hand, short-term or trading is a popular way of making money that keeps money flowing in the market.
Correct me if I am wrong; there have been several discussion in comparison between gambling and investment. To me the comparism is not bad but only on the concept that when you gamble it's assumed that you aren't sure of the outcome, then again, when you do investment be it short term or long term that is not related to bitcoin where you only buy shitcoin that holds no values then we can say these investment is referred to as gambling.

Buying shitcoin that has a higher volatility can never be referred as investment rather we can see it as gambling because that shitcoin may not have any future values and we can call it gambling, but investment in reputed coin such as bitcoin, ethereum or any other top 5 coin with less volatility can be referred as investment be it short and long term we can't call it gambling but instead investment.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Stompix on September 10, 2024, 02:51:02 PM
There is no way to think of gambling and trading on the same level. Both have different characteristics. Even if a trader is temporarily at a loss in trading, he can recover by holding it. But a gambler has no such advantage.

It's exactly the same thing!
Too many try to pin it on you will never lose everything, well, tell that to the 9000deads coins that have been traded at one point that now are equal to zero, the same thing in unrealized gains, you can still cash out in gambling, your team can score in the 90+7 minute, the risks are the same, the gains are the same, no magical TA will able to shield you from risks in markets!

It's just that traders don't want to be portaited as gamblers, the reality is that's just what they are!

Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: bisdak40 on September 10, 2024, 04:27:41 PM
Gambling and short-term crypto investment share in common where they take risks where you can gain or lose money. Gambling is a form of entertainment where you bet money to earn and double money in return through casino games. slot games. sports bet, etc. Short-term crypto investment involves buying and selling cryptocurrencies to make a profit within a relatively short period. if I were to choose I would go to gambling but I would do sports betting. I have more chance to win because I can analyze the game to make predictions.

Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: 0t3p0t on September 10, 2024, 09:20:23 PM
Gambling and short-term crypto investment share in common where they take risks where you can gain or lose money. Gambling is a form of entertainment where you bet money to earn and double money in return through casino games. slot games. sports bet, etc. Short-term crypto investment involves buying and selling cryptocurrencies to make a profit within a relatively short period. if I were to choose I would go to gambling but I would do sports betting. I have more chance to win because I can analyze the game to make predictions.
Trading requires expertise and skills to gain profit while gambling requires luck so we can really differentiate which we are gonna prioritize though this depends on what activity are we interested in whether trading or gambling but for me personally I would prefer trading.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Crypto Library on September 10, 2024, 11:17:43 PM
Gambling and short-term crypto investment share in common where they take risks where you can gain or lose money. Gambling is a form of entertainment where you bet money to earn and double money in return through casino games. slot games. sports bet, etc. Short-term crypto investment involves buying and selling cryptocurrencies to make a profit within a relatively short period. if I were to choose I would go to gambling but I would do sports betting. I have more chance to win because I can analyze the game to make predictions.
It used to amaze me and still amazes me with these topics that people still compare trading with gambling.  I agree that trading without trading analysis skills is like gambling.  But trading through proper analysis cannot be compared to gambling in any way.
And one more thing you have already mentioned that gambling is an entertainment purpose it can never be a serious investment like trading.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: sampoerna on September 10, 2024, 11:35:14 PM
It really depends on how we invest. What might be similar to gambling is trading in the Future market without good knowledge and just relying on luck. This looks more like gambling.

However, if it is a short investment, I don't think so, as long as we can optimize our analysis in choosing coins and also their rates. especially if this is an investment, not trading in the future. So, even if the price drops at a certain point, our assets will not be lost, only the value will decrease, and because it is an investment, we can still wait for it to go up again.

Unlike gambling when it's time, well, if we lose, it's gone, if we win, we get money. Likewise with Future trading, if it gets liquid, it will run out after a while.

So before implementing a short investment period, we must also analyze first, choose coins that are not just hype. so that the coins will still have a chance to survive whatever the market conditions. And one more thing, don't be easily provoked to panic and sell off the assets when the market is down. This will have a bad impact on our investment.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Rruchi man on September 11, 2024, 08:37:30 AM
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Short-term investments can even be more profitable than gambling because the two are not in the same line. Gambling is more for entertainment and with an opportunity to make money, but there is no fun with short-term investments, just mostly the satisfaction that it can give you that you are planning for the near future. There is nothing that should stop you from investing if you gamble or from gambling if you invest. You can do both, but always try to invest more amount of money than you gamble with.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: koang on September 11, 2024, 09:51:22 AM
Here we go again... compare short-term investing to gambling. lol

Investment is an investment, either short-term or long-term.
Investment is about financial education where one of the lessons taught is to rely on various financial instruments to generate profits to achieve our financial goals, there is no luck factor here.
And gambling? You know lah...
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Sim_card on September 11, 2024, 05:49:28 PM
If you are talking about trading, it is very risky like gambling but the difference is that trading is a skill and not based on luck. Whereas, gambling is based majorly on luck but it is a means of entertainment and stress relief but people takes it to be a profitable activity. If you are lucky as a short-term hodler to buy bitcoin and within a short period of time, the price shoots up, you can sell and take profit but if the price goes against you, it becomes emotional and if gou sell by then, you are at loss.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: $crypto$ on September 12, 2024, 06:03:49 PM
If you are talking about trading, it is very risky like gambling but the difference is that trading is a skill and not based on luck. Whereas, gambling is based majorly on luck but it is a means of entertainment and stress relief but people takes it to be a profitable activity. If you are lucky as a short-term hodler to buy bitcoin and within a short period of time, the price shoots up, you can sell and take profit but if the price goes against you, it becomes emotional and if gou sell by then, you are at loss.
What will make trading and gambling the same is when they do it without knowledge, while those who trade with knowledge, then it is not the same as gambling.

This is actually what makes many people go astray, they think trading is easy so they will do it without thinking and without being equipped with knowledge. When they lose some money, they will say trading is the same as gambling. They generalize something they don't understand.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: robelneo on September 12, 2024, 07:55:16 PM
Many people compare short-term investing to gambling, which leaves me wondering how true this really is. But I am not willing to compare short term investing with gambling.


Short term investing,, when done properly, is profitable, but when done without doing research, it constitutes gambling, but investors should invest or use money that they can afford to lose.

In someway they are different and in someway they are the same, it depends on how the investor or gambler treats these two and what their goals are.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: salad daging on September 12, 2024, 08:06:20 PM
So this cannot be compared to gambling and short-term investment. What do you mean by short-term investment is at least 6 months? Or is it just short-term trading?

If we are referring to income then of course for example short-term trading you can make a profit there although there is a risk but not as big as gambling where you are likely to lose everything, whereas trading is not, if you have the skills you can target profits in the short term that you do.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: summonerrk on September 12, 2024, 08:26:21 PM
I recently had a fight with a friend because he said that trading is no different from betting or gambling. But in my opinion, this is not true at all! Trading is not addictive, you can manage your trading position there. That is why my choice is always trading, and only on Bitcoin. It has become quite interesting and volatile.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Gurujebs on September 12, 2024, 09:31:53 PM
In conclusion I can say that gambling is one of the means of entertainment and it is not only a means of earning money as many try to present it differently. On the other hand, short-term or trading is a popular way of making money that keeps money flowing in the market.

There is nothing entertaining about gambling unless you are making money from it else the only thing that will be showing on your face is debt and debt couple with addiction to make the money back. However, I will not advise anyone to gamble in replacement of short term crypto investment, if there is no profit to be made, keep your money or use it for something important.

I don't think it's even wise to use gambling as an alternative of making money even though it's obvious money making but the risk involved doesn't guarantee any money. Crypto investment atleast is even better whether it's short or long term.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Crwth on September 12, 2024, 09:35:05 PM
If I am basing my decision on your subject, I think I would choose to gamble if it is just for the short term. Gambling solves a lot in the short term, in my opinion, because it is so fast, and you could really win easily if you are lucky.

If I look in the long run, I think it is better to invest in cryptocurrency, but take note that it is not for the short term like in your subject. It should always be a long-term thing, like any other investment, and you shouldn’t expect instant return or profit.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: JISAN on September 12, 2024, 09:52:34 PM
Gambling and trading is not same. Gambling is a place of entertainment but trading is a source of income. you can also get money from gambling by winning your bet but it is very risky and if you get addicted on gambling then you will lost your normal behover and lost your financial Waight. Short time trading or day trading is risky but not as risky as gambling.  So if compare with gambling and short term trading then I will support trading. but if you want to get fun then gambling is for you
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: summonerrk on September 13, 2024, 08:38:47 PM
Gambling and trading is not same. Gambling is a place of entertainment but trading is a source of income. you can also get money from gambling by winning your bet but it is very risky and if you get addicted on gambling then you will lost your normal behover and lost your financial Waight. Short time trading or day trading is risky but not as risky as gambling.  So if compare with gambling and short term trading then I will support trading. but if you want to get fun then gambling is for you

You gave me a great idea that the terms perfectly reflect the meaning of money in casinos and in trading. Now I will explain. If someone made a Profit in betting or casino, then he Won this money. And if someone made a Profit in trading, then he Earned this money. And this completely reflects the truth. And I agree with such terminologies and their meanings.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Kemarit on September 13, 2024, 11:24:40 PM
If I am basing my decision on your subject, I think I would choose to gamble if it is just for the short term. Gambling solves a lot in the short term, in my opinion, because it is so fast, and you could really win easily if you are lucky.

If I look in the long run, I think it is better to invest in cryptocurrency, but take note that it is not for the short term like in your subject. It should always be a long-term thing, like any other investment, and you shouldn’t expect instant return or profit.

It's just hard to depend on gambling though, specially luck base game for the money that you are looking for. Yeah, if you won, then good for you problem solved, but if you completely lose all the money, then you might have regretted your decision to gamble after all and target the money that you wanted.

So there are pros/cons, but for the conservative, then they might go short term trading, but their is also the catch, that if you are uneducated about trading, then you might also lose money in the beginning.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Ricardo11 on September 14, 2024, 11:17:48 AM
Gambling and trading is not same. Gambling is a place of entertainment but trading is a source of income. you can also get money from gambling by winning your bet but it is very risky and if you get addicted on gambling then you will lost your normal behover and lost your financial Waight. Short time trading or day trading is risky but not as risky as gambling.  So if compare with gambling and short term trading then I will support trading. but if you want to get fun then gambling is for you
I totally agree with you, gambling is a place of entertainment but trading can be a income source. Because gambling is a game where the whole game depends on luck, skill and experience do not help much in gambling, here luck is the most important, but in this case in trading we can reduce its risk to a great extent by skill and experience. It is not as risky as gambling. So gambling should always be played for entertainment, but in trading we can consider it as a source of earning money by applying our skills and experience, nowadays many people are earning a lot of money from trading, they are considering trading as the only source of income and he What got from trading, he couldn't get from anywhere else. So getting high skill in trading is definitely possible to get the best.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: MUGNIA on September 14, 2024, 05:07:00 PM
Gambling and short-term crypto investment share in common where they take risks where you can gain or lose money. Gambling is a form of entertainment where you bet money to earn and double money in return through casino games. slot games. sports bet, etc. Short-term crypto investment involves buying and selling cryptocurrencies to make a profit within a relatively short period. if I were to choose I would go to gambling but I would do sports betting. I have more chance to win because I can analyze the game to make predictions.
Trading requires expertise and skills to gain profit while gambling requires luck so we can really differentiate which we are gonna prioritize though this depends on what activity are we interested in whether trading or gambling but for me personally I would prefer trading.

Same as you, I prefer trading to gambling, my reason is if I trade or when I lose, for example the price of a coin goes down, I have 2 options, sell cheaply or wait for the price to come back, if I sell cheaply I still get money, if I gamble when I lose, the funds I have will be lost forever
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: laijsica on September 15, 2024, 03:32:18 PM
Gambling and short-term crypto investment share in common where they take risks where you can gain or lose money. Gambling is a form of entertainment where you bet money to earn and double money in return through casino games. slot games. sports bet, etc. Short-term crypto investment involves buying and selling cryptocurrencies to make a profit within a relatively short period. if I were to choose I would go to gambling but I would do sports betting. I have more chance to win because I can analyze the game to make predictions.
Trading requires expertise and skills to gain profit while gambling requires luck so we can really differentiate which we are gonna prioritize though this depends on what activity are we interested in whether trading or gambling but for me personally I would prefer trading.

Same as you, I prefer trading to gambling, my reason is if I trade or when I lose, for example the price of a coin goes down, I have 2 options, sell cheaply or wait for the price to come back, if I sell cheaply I still get money, if I gamble when I lose, the funds I have will be lost forever
In gambling there is a high chance of losing but there is also a chance of winning and a lot of profit but in trading the risk of losing money is very low but the chance of profit depends on the right currency selection and in short term trading the profit can be very less. I prefer both trading and gambling by chance because making money is the main thing. When it comes to trading I use a fairly long-term approach such as buying and holding bearish first and then withdrawing during bullish periods.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: libert19 on September 15, 2024, 03:43:31 PM
I consider myself a bad trader, if I trade it's almost like a gambling, I would have a better chance for making profit by betting on a cricket match.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: Legion on September 18, 2024, 04:53:42 AM
I consider myself a bad trader, if I trade it's almost like a gambling, I would have a better chance for making profit by betting on a cricket match.
Indeed, Trading can be like gambling at times especially if we don’t have a proper plan or we are not patient enough to withstand the movements in the market. Still, a lot of individuals have such thoughts at the start and, in actuality, trading can be more imperative and not accidental with better understanding and more cautious approach.
 
Still, if you want to stick betting to such games as cricket because you are more at ease when betting on the flow of the game, that’s quite alright. Each person may have specific issues that he/she is more familiar with and is therefore more comfortable with taking decisions about. In trading and all related fields, the key point to realize is to know the possibilities of a loss in each particular decision.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: koang on September 18, 2024, 11:48:06 AM
I consider myself a bad trader, if I trade it's almost like a gambling, I would have a better chance for making profit by betting on a cricket match.

You are telling the truth or just trying to be humble, I don't know but at least you know what you have to do to make a profit, so you are a skilled gambler :)

We all need to understand our strengths and weaknesses because that's where our potential lies.
Knowing our strengths can help us to develop ourselves and become specialists in fields that suit our expertise.
Title: Re: Gambling or short term crypto investment !
Post by: |MINER| on September 19, 2024, 10:29:32 PM
Comparing investment with gambling alone is foolish. Short term crypto investment is called trading and trading and gambling are not the same. And I think this mistake is made by most of the new members that trading and gambling are the same. In fact, it is understood that the person who is comparing trading with gambling has very little knowledge about trading and that is why he is making such stupid comparisons.
Gambling is completely dependent on luck from the beginning to the end and on the other hand trading depends on luck but you cannot be successful here without good analysis skills. So trading and gambling are not the same, gambling is for entertainment purpose don't mixup them.