Badges and labels (re: Report Incentivised posting)

[examplens]

Note how out of the 30+ shills labelled in past month that none have complained about it 

I think that this system with badges and a mark on the forum is perhaps a little more complicated. Too many different labels, and it's a little harder to find more details about them.
Many users, even if they are not registered just to shill, do not even notice such marks, if they do see it, it is not so obvious whether it is a positive or negative mark.

I thought it would be good to bring this up for discussion in the Senate

btw. I must admit that I am unpleasantly surprised that there was zero reaction here to a fairly obvious matter https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=112178.msg1636720#msg1636720

[Lucius]

I just gave him another 20% warning, it is the second warning that this user has accumulated and he also has negative Karma. I'll keep an eye on upcoming posts to see if the user notices anything or is looking for the third warning.
Thanks for your help.
+2.

I have one question - does this mean that the first warning was not visible in his profile (because I did not see anything of that type yesterday), while today I can clearly see that he has been added to a new group and that he has a warning?

~snip~
Note how out of the 30+ shills labelled in past month that none have complained about it 

It would be really stupid for someone to complain about being caught in something that is against the rules of the forum - although in the thread I opened specifically for BG shills there was at least one who claimed that such communication is something normal because he only supports that CEX.

~snip~
The reality is shills should be given one chance, not several. Given we label AI bots at first instance, as well as distribute plagiarism strikes over first offences, overall giving shills tags and strikes over second offence doesn't seem that harsh to me at all. Especially knowing that 99% of them have no interest in contributing to the forum other than disruptively shilling.

I agree, if we see a clear pattern that someone is a shill, then by giving extra new chances, we only prolong his activity on the forum. Personally, I would give a warning in the form of a temporary ban of 7 days with the message that any similar behavior will result in a permanent ban. Everyone deserves a second chance, but it should be done in a clear and efficient way.

[dragononcrypto]

Note how out of the 30+ shills labelled in past month that none have complained about it 

I think that this system with badges and a mark on the forum is perhaps a little more complicated. Too many different labels, and it's a little harder to find more details about them.

The bad badges are all referenced here, linked at bottom of the main topic about it, even referenced and linked in the second highlighted topic in the top right corner of the forum "Everything about Ranks and Rank". If anyone wanted to find the meaning of these badges they would only need to search in beginners section for the answer, or otherwise ask the question for the hundredth time. The reason there is a diversity of badges is because we don't just label all users as "misbehaving" or otherwise, but specify more precisely how they are misbehaving, or have broken the forum rules etc.

Granted there are some membership groups without badges (local mods, ex mods, under review, etc), or otherwise groups without self-explanatory descriptions like zoom1, but that's a different story. Why users are in zoom1 and not duplicate profile membership group I don't understand, that's for admin to answer, or ideally just resolve with another badge.

Many users, even if they are not registered just to shill, do not even notice such marks, if they do see it, it is not so obvious whether it is a positive or negative mark.

The labels/badges are not for the benefit of the users themselves, this is a common misconception of the purpose of these bad badges. This is what the warnings are for that specify exactly why they have been warned/punished. The shill warning template specifically references this post, as well as forum rules, how to rank up without penalties, etc. The badges are solely for the benefit of everyone else, so users can be aware that a shill may well be shilling, or otherwise bounty managers when accepting new participants to campaigns for example.

I just gave him another 20% warning, it is the second warning that this user has accumulated and he also has negative Karma. I'll keep an eye on upcoming posts to see if the user notices anything or is looking for the third warning.
Thanks for your help.
+2.

I have one question - does this mean that the first warning was not visible in his profile (because I did not see anything of that type yesterday), while today I can clearly see that he has been added to a new group and that he has a warning?

Warnings on profiles are not visible to non-mods, not even the user themselves. You are probably conflating warning level and warnings here. The warning level was visible on profile as it was +20%, (which is over 10%), so they are additionally added to the watchlist to keep an eye on. The membership groups are not warning levels and is a different system, they are simply used in combination. For example when users are added to shill group, or receive a strike etc, then they are additionally sent a warning. Warnings can otherwise be sent with no warning level, or without even sending a warning to the user.

Personally, I would give a warning in the form of a temporary ban of 7 days with the message that any similar behavior will result in a permanent ban. Everyone deserves a second chance, but it should be done in a clear and efficient way.

I already posted about this before, but to summarise again first offence is a warning, second offence is being added to shill group + 1 strike, third offence they are added to misbehaving group with a 2nd strike. Misbehaving group is a moderated group, meaning all posts have to be approved by mods to be seen, so it becomes impossible to shill (aside from mod errors). This is actually a lot more effective than a ban as shills who attempt to continue to shill will not have their posts approved, and otherwise are more likely to continue trying than immediately creating a new account to carry on. They can also be added to 3 strikes group which requires admin approval (from admin or president), so overall slows down the effect of shill creating new accounts (though usually after a week or two they work it out).

For a long-time we've had the ability to temporarily mute users, but is rarely necessarily or beneficial. This is only for cases where a user is repeatedly breaking the forum rules daily, or multiple times per day. Then after 3x 20% warnings the user will be muted, or otherwise with 5x warnings they will be muted for approximately a week with 100% warning level. It's otherwise not a very effective solution, as most of the time these users will simply return to bad behaviour after no longer being muted, hence 3 strike system is preferred, as having posts require approval from mods/admin, by being added to misbehaving or 3 strikes, is a much better solution long-term. We don't want to delay shills reaching misbehaving group if that's their intended destination, it is better to let them carry on shilling so they can be added there sooner rather than later. A temporarily ban would only delay this process for most, and thus become a waste of time.

I imagine that all sounds relatively confusing, which is exactly why we have very detailed moderator guidelines and only promote mods to global mods who have the experience of when to use membership groups for different reasons. As it's certainly not straightforward, and usually takes a year or two to fully understand if I'm honest, or longer for others.

[examplens]

The bad badges are all referenced here, linked at bottom of the main topic about it, even referenced and linked in the second highlighted topic in the top right corner of the forum "Everything about Ranks and Rank".

You should probably update, the admin has recently implemented additional badges, those coloured dots. I think it was focused on the quality of the posts.
This
As far as I remember, the red dots should have led to the disabled signature space.

I would also consider this % a kind of badge, although its main purpose is for moderators to be informed and can lead to punishing the user.

Warnings on profiles are not visible to non-mods, not even the user themselves. You are probably conflating warning level and warnings here. The warning level was visible on profile as it was +20%, (which is over 10%), so they are additionally added to the watchlist to keep an eye on.

The badges are solely for the benefit of everyone else, so users can be aware that a shill may well be shilling, or otherwise bounty managers when accepting new participants to campaigns for example.

Accounts that are registered only for shilling are most often not interested in any campaign. In the end, they are paid to shill and that is their primary and only purpose. Punishment with badges means nothing to them.
(I will return to the Hugewin casino case that I presented here earlier)

From this discussion, both Lucius and I can be considered somewhat more experienced forum users, but we are still looking for additional explanations. It could be concluded that if we need an explanation, a beginner will certainly not understand much.

Next, I think that very few users know about the strike badge, maybe they don't even know how to find more information about it

As it's certainly not straightforward, and usually takes a year or two to fully understand if I'm honest, or longer for others.

Too long a period just to understand the functionality of the forum.

[dragononcrypto]

The bad badges are all referenced here, linked at bottom of the main topic about it, even referenced and linked in the second highlighted topic in the top right corner of the forum "Everything about Ranks and Rank".

You should probably update, the admin has recently implemented additional badges, those coloured dots. I think it was focused on the quality of the posts.
This
As far as I remember, the red dots should have led to the disabled signature space.

No I probably shouldn't to be honest, I already acknowledged it and recognised it wasn't being implemented so was worthless to add. As you also know, both of these quality based dots are due to be scrapped anyway based on senate discussion. Hence why I didn't bother to rush to update anything based on something that wasn't being implemented anyway.

I would also consider this % a kind of badge, although its main purpose is for moderators to be informed and can lead to punishing the user.

Again, this is already documented for those interested or whom it concerns. I also shouldn't have to quote this since I linked this topic twice in my previous post. Furthermore it's not a membership group, this is why there is no badge. Badges are located within the profile, not referenced at the bottom like warning levels. These are only temporary, which badges are not.

Temporary Warnings (Not Membership Groups)

=> Below 10% warning level no longer appears on your posts, the warning level will eventually decrease to 0%
=> Below 30% warning level you will no longer have posts moderated, but still be watched
=> Blow 60% warning level you will no longer be muted, but instead have posts moderated

Accounts that are registered only for shilling are most often not interested in any campaign. In the end, they are paid to shill and that is their primary and only purpose. Punishment with badges means nothing to them.

Thanks, although I'm also aware of this. Only one shill has taken to the IP section to post there, as requested (and as expected re: only 1). The rest ignore all warnings and labels. Fortunately they also ignore being moderated, so continue trying to shill but without their posts being approved. Probably it's not obvious but out of the now 40+ shills that have been labelled, only a dozen have even bothered to log in this month, for most of them it's only to find that their posts are now moderated. The system is working as intended (labelling followed by moderating). Maybe you don't realise either but by labelling as shills it's easier to monitor an entire membership group, at least from a mod perspective that's the main benefit.

From this discussion, both Lucius and I can be considered somewhat more experienced forum users, but we are still looking for additional explanations. It could be concluded that if we need an explanation, a beginner will certainly not understand much.

From my perspective, you are both relatively new to how moderation works here, are easily confused and misunderstand a lot of how things work here, whether that's by lack of better explanations or understanding (no offence intended). The system is relatively complicated (granted), but it's in order to maximise moderation efficiency. We don't just have an ineffective "ban not ban" binary policy here like bct, we have a diversity of mod tools from labels to warnings to moderation groups for better effectiveness. Without seeing the backend results of this, I can understand how it seems like it's not working or wouldn't work, so for example 99% of Misbehaving users are no longer active - because their posts are moderated. Fortunately the 1% that are still active probably don't even realise that their posts are moderated and continue to (try) and post rather than create a new account - which is the ideal scenario in reality. Banning users is the dumb move from a moderation perspective, as it simply invites new accounts to be created.

Next, I think that very few users know about the strike badge, maybe they don't even know how to find more information about it

If they want to know about it they can go to beginners forum and ask about it, as beginners regularly do, I'm struggling to understand how difficult it is to ask questions. We even have an Ask a Moderator section for these examples. Ultimately, they don't need to actually know about it. As previously referenced, these sort of punishment labels are intended for the users in question, mods, as well as bounty managers. They really don't concern the wider forum as a whole. How are you suggesting that we better educate forum users of these strikes, other than it being linked or referenced everywhere already?

As it's certainly not straightforward, and usually takes a year or two to fully understand if I'm honest, or longer for others.

Too long a period just to understand the functionality of the forum.

Again, users don't need to know how users get labelled or warned or moderated. At minimum a user being labelled as a shill or AI is arguably useful to others without needing to understand the ins and outs of how these users are labelled as such. I otherwise meant it takes a year or two for mods to fully grasp how the system works, in order to be eligible for global mod privileges.

[examplens]

..

Man, you are killing me with moving posts 

If they want to know about it they can go to beginners forum and ask about it, as beginners regularly do, I'm struggling to understand how difficult it is to ask questions. We even have an Ask a Moderator section for these examples.

Count on the fact that they are newcomers and do not know where the instructions are. That's why they are Newbie 

How are you suggesting that we better educate forum users of these strikes, other than it being linked or referenced everywhere already?

Things must be as simple as possible. If you want something to be easily accepted, it must be easy to use and understand.
Users should not spend too much time to find what they are interested in. The badges system should also be simplified, some things are very similar and it is not necessary for each to have a separate image. At the same time, the concept is very different, so we have "line" badges, texted + smile icon, texted + img, img only...
Maybe one of the designers from the forum should make a new smaller collection, with a better design and a clearer visual impression of what it is intended for.
I already suggested an info hint when hovering the mouse over the badge, which will give information about what it is for.

[Lucius]

@dragononcrypto, thanks for the additional clarifications and comprehensive post as always.

+1