Altcoins Talks - Cryptocurrency Forum

Cryptocurrency Ecosystem => Bitcoin Forum => Topic started by: MrSpasybo on January 09, 2024, 04:28:35 PM

Title: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MrSpasybo on January 09, 2024, 04:28:35 PM
Perhaps at this time the entire crypto market is focusing on tracking updates about BTC Spot ETF and predicting its impact on crypto market in the short/medium/long terms. I refer to 2 opinions[1,2] on Coindesk and share my own views on the impact of BTC Spot ETF.

1. In the short term (weeks or months): prices can be pumped because of FOMO or dumped because of “sell-the-news”.

2. In the medium term (several years):

3. In the long term from a pessimistic perspective, BTC Spot ETF could be a poison pill for BTC and crypto. Stay calm and let's look at it together.
Looking back at Gold Spot ETF in 2004, following its launch, gold prices increased significantly through 2011, but stagnated over the next decade. Young people in US are now very unfamiliar with buying gold for their own storage, they choose to invest in gold ETFs for convenience, and they complain about inflation and devaluation of $. This truth is completely different from the situation in Vietnam: Vietnamese investors do not have the concept of Gold Spot ETF, we buy and sell gold by grams/pieces/jewelry at precious metal stores ourselves, we self-store and lend gold to each other when necessary.

I wonder if in the future, there will be a time when investors will pay attention to these problems and realize our foolishness. Then, a huge upheaval will come: is it the time for our surrender or the tipping point of a revolution in the financial markets?

What is your view on the implications of BTC Spot ETF many years from now? Do you think ETFs are threatening the true value of BTC? Are you only interested in the profits that BTC Spot ETF will bring in the short term? Do you think Satoshi Nakamoto will support BTC Spot ETF?

[1] Bitcoin ETFs: The Bull Case (https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2024/01/08/bitcoin-etfs-the-bull-case/)
[2] Bitcoin ETFs: The Bear Case (https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2024/01/08/bitcoin-etfs-the-bear-case/)
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Nwada001 on January 11, 2024, 05:16:50 PM
What is your view on the implications of BTC Spot ETF many years from now?

Bitcoin ETFs have been the talk of town since their application submission up until the date that they were approved, and one of the reasons I joined many who believe in the positivity that will come with their approval is that their approval is going to stand as a great sign and a new beginning for bitcoin legality. Many people believed and saw bitcoin as an illegal asset, and as such, they don't want to get their hands involved in it.
 
Like you have already said above, this approval will bring a great opportunity to bitcoin as it will now have a larger market, more investors will come in, and all of that, and this is going to mark a significant beginning for other institutional investors to buy the idea of owning this as part of their stock.

Quote
Do you think ETFs are threatening the true value of BTC?
When you talk about the true value of bitcoin, what area are you referring to? In the aspect of decentralisation, oh yes, when it comes to transparency, there will be some level of that up to an extent. In the aspect of self-custody, I guess the owner won't entirely be in control as they don't hold the real bitcoin, but rather it's just backed up somewhere.

Quote
Are you only interested in the profits that BTC Spot ETF will bring in the short term?
 
Everyone will like to take a profit when they present themselves, but then again, how long will this profit last? The profit aside, I'm also concerned about market manipulation. The bitcoin ETF will make it easier for whales to dump their wallets at a time and also refill, which could have both a negative and positive impact on the bitcoin price.

Quote
Do you think Satoshi Nakamoto will support BTC Spot ETF?[/b][/color]
I guess for bitcoin to be generally accepted, especially in a large economy like that of bitcoin, the only aspect I believe might be against his vision is that the bitcoin ETF won't give users total control of what they own.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: examplens on January 11, 2024, 11:56:28 PM
Unfortunately, this pessimistic perspective is much more likely to me. This completely violates one of the basic values of the Bitcoin ecosystem, that we are the owners of our portfolio. Now we should turn to the dollar again.
The SEC has been clearing space for this for a long time, punishing and expelling as many players as possible.

Quote
Do you think Satoshi Nakamoto will support BTC Spot ETF?

Did someone ask him?
If so, can he change anything?
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: jonathancool220 on January 12, 2024, 04:25:59 AM

Quote
Do you think Satoshi Nakamoto will support BTC Spot ETF?

Did someone ask him?
If so, can he change anything?
Haha, this thread is all right, it made me laugh out loud. LOL
I'm not sure if Satoshi Nakamoto agrees because he wants Bitcoin to remain normal as usual, namely P2P between users.
This Bitcoin ETF has actually become a trending topic for discussion, if only what is discussed about the good is good but the discussion about the bad I don't respect.
But between every discussion of Bitcoin being accepted by the ETF, there are definitely pluses and minuses for the price of Bitcoin in the market, as Bitcoin traders and altcoins have been waiting for this moment to seek profits from the good news of the Bitcoin ETF.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Mayajal on January 12, 2024, 05:26:59 AM
JUST IN: 🇺🇸 Top 5 spot #Bitcoin    trading volumes today:

Grayscale: $2.3 billion
BlackRock: $1 billion
Fidelity: $700 million
ARK 21Shares: $288 million
Bitwise: $125 million

The institutions are here 🚀
[urlhttps://twitter.com/BitcoinMagazine/status/1745573835070427520?t=Ico5U0v5VfVAPtVDN6fLig&s=19]Details[/url]

(https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/01/12/36fgf.png)

Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Peter90 on January 12, 2024, 12:21:30 PM
  • Losing the historical mission of Bitcoin: In 2008, Satoshi Nakamoto introduced Bitcoin as a method for people to have the right to self-custody of money, not dependent on third parties, escaping the traditional financial model that has a lot of problems.
    This is only possible when each person stores BTC in their personal account and trades P2P.
Thumb up!
How refreshing to meet someone who reminds the crypto community of what is the point of Bitcoin!
Thank you Spasybo!


The point of Bitcoin is to be a currency - that's why they call them cryptocurrencies.
A currency is a means of payment. With a currency you can buy bananas and take a taxi.

With shares of an ETF, you can't.
They are not currency. You need to convert them into fiat and with that fiat currency you can pay.
With ETF shares you are still dependent on fiat currency.
ETF shares are no alternative to fiat currency.

What is the problem with fiat currency?
Spasybo explained it very well: with fiat currency you are dependent on the banking system.

First on the central bank. They decide how much fiat currency to put into circulation. They influence the purchasing power - the value - of your money!
Second on your bank. What you deposit at the bank, it become theirs. Bank employees know everything about your life, they know how much do you have, how much you spend, where you transfer to and where you get your money from.

Bitcoin had to be the solution to this, instead it has reduced itself to a game to make money.
BTC ETFs won't help in nothing the adoption of Bitcoin as a currency.


Spasybo, who knew you are a bitcoin maximalist  :D
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Zed0X on January 12, 2024, 01:20:47 PM
I remember back in 2017 or 2018 when almost everyone is talking about institutional money flowing into crypto but now that it's actually happening, we're having reservations. To be fair, the concerns are valid but this is what most traders want. I was also thinking that it will change the cycle that we know of but what else can we do? We can only sit back.

Now that Bitcoin ETF is already here, I'm hoping that none of these wealthy groups would collude and control the major miners.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MrSpasybo on January 12, 2024, 03:09:07 PM
this approval will bring a great opportunity to bitcoin as it will now have a larger market, more investors will come in, and all of that, and this is going to mark a significant beginning for other institutional investors to buy the idea of owning this as part of their stock.
In the aspect of self-custody, I guess the owner won't entirely be in control as they don't hold the real bitcoin, but rather it's just backed up somewhere.
The bitcoin ETF will make it easier for whales to dump their wallets at a time and also refill, which could have both a negative and positive impact on the bitcoin price.
I guess for bitcoin to be generally accepted, especially in a large economy like that of bitcoin, the only aspect I believe might be against his vision is that the bitcoin ETF won't give users total control of what they own.
I like practical thoughts like this, we have our own ideals when we come to crypto, but the market has its own rules, and especially when we can't do anything to fight the inevitable trend, which is being supported by major financial forces. At least, we still have the consolation of the positive effects of BTC Spot ETF on the overall market.

Unfortunately, this pessimistic perspective is much more likely to me. This completely violates one of the basic values of the Bitcoin ecosystem, that we are the owners of our portfolio. Now we should turn to the dollar again.
The SEC has been clearing space for this for a long time, punishing and expelling as many players as possible.
From the standpoint of respecting the integrity of Bitcoin's value, it is true that we should be cautious when assessing the impact of BTC Spot ETF. What we can do is hope that ETFs do not become an epidemic that takes over all blockchains in the crypto market. Bitcoin is the leader so it may have to be sacrificed to bring legitimacy to crypto.
P/s: I hope Satoshi is following the news and has an answer on Bitcoin network in the form of Inscription ^^

JUST IN: 🇺🇸 Top 5 spot #Bitcoin    trading volumes today:
Grayscale: $2.3 billion
BlackRock: $1 billion
Fidelity: $700 million
ARK 21Shares: $288 million
Bitwise: $125 million
Wow, we have validated traditional investor demand for ETFs, which is bound to give crypto bullrun a boost.

BTC ETFs won't help in nothing the adoption of Bitcoin as a currency.
Spasybo, who knew you are a bitcoin maximalist  :D
Yeah, this is the problem we need to pay attention to. ETFs make BTC seem more powerful and legitimate, but it also pulls BTC away from its original destiny. I don't expect this to become so severe that BTC Spot ETF gets more attention than BTC itself.
I am not a Bitcoin maximalist, I support both Bitcoin and Altcoins. I always believe that opportunities in the crypto market are for all of potential candidates!

I remember back in 2017 or 2018 when almost everyone is talking about institutional money flowing into crypto but now that it's actually happening, we're having reservations. To be fair, the concerns are valid but this is what most traders want. I was also thinking that it will change the cycle that we know of but what else can we do? We can only sit back.

Now that Bitcoin ETF is already here, I'm hoping that none of these wealthy groups would collude and control the major miners.
BTC needs mass adoption, BTC needs more cash flow, but Spot ETF only provides the latter. When the majority of people are too optimistic, we should be a little more cautious because there may be something left, that's incorrect or potentially risky here.
Miners are big companies but also decentralized, so I don't worry too much about the transparency of Bitcoin network. The cost of attacking/manipulating Bitcoin network is huge and Spot ETF providers will have no incentive to do it.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Power420 on January 12, 2024, 04:12:45 PM
Bitcoin price continues to see an upward trend, currently since the approval of the Bitcoin ETF, the price of Bitcoin has seen an upward movement. Bitcoin halving is in 2024 so Bitcoin price will definitely increase.  So now is the right time to invest in Bitcoin, now if you can invest in Bitcoin, the chances of getting benefits are definitely high. I am the only one who believes that investing in Bitcoin has a very low probability of loss. So all of you who are still without investment in Bitcoin must invest.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Faisal2202 on January 12, 2024, 06:21:17 PM
I wonder if in the future, there will be a time when investors will pay attention to these problems and realize our foolishness. Then, a huge upheaval will come: is it the time for our surrender or the tipping point of a revolution in the financial markets?
I don't think in the future a time will come when people will start to use gold (physical) again instead of these Gold ETFs for convenience. Because it is a modern era and now we are into digitalization, and automation, we want everything to be self-managed, we don't want to spend hours, days on one thing, we want everything to be prepared by itself, like just a few years ago, people were holding their funds by themselves, but now after 2000s, people are using thrid person investors, or funds advisors, who are managing their funds and investing into different options. The only thing that has changed now is, back then these financial advisors do not consider BTC or crypto as an option to invest in.

But nowadays they prefer everyone to invest a small piece of their capital to invest in BTC.
What is your view on the implications of BTC Spot ETF many years from now? Do you think ETFs are threatening the true value of BTC? Are you only interested in the profits that BTC Spot ETF will bring in the short term? Do you think Satoshi Nakamoto will support BTC Spot ETF?
Yeah, ETFs are threatening the true value and potential they have, People will not be using the custodial or non-custodial wallets, they will not be aware of the hardware wallets, and cannot experience how it feels to be owners of what belongs to you. I hope you got my point here. I am only interested in ETFs just because it will drive money towards BTC but in the end, people (smart ones) will understand the BTC and they might come to use its features directly like wallets, blockchain, smarcontracts, etc. etc.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Stompix on January 12, 2024, 07:00:41 PM
Bitcoin price continues to see an upward trend, currently since the approval of the Bitcoin ETF, the price of Bitcoin has seen an upward movement. Bitcoin halving is in 2024 so Bitcoin price will definitely increase.

What charts are you watching, what's the name of that coin and in what reality do you reside?

(https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/01/12/3TMDN.png)

I know that some asian countries like China or South Korea red is up but I've never yet seen a country where down is up!  ;D

JUST IN: 🇺🇸 Top 5 spot #Bitcoin    trading volumes today:
Grayscale: $2.3 billion
BlackRock: $1 billion
Fidelity: $700 million
ARK 21Shares: $288 million
Bitwise: $125 million
Wow, we have validated traditional investor demand for ETFs, which is bound to give crypto bullrun a boost.

Yeah, we're right now at a 6.02% boos for the day. Down!  ::) as we dipped below the December 5th pump!
Just a few more of these boosts are we're heading back below 40 k or even worse.

Looking back at Gold Spot ETF in 2004, following its launch, gold prices increased significantly through 2011, but stagnated over the next decade. Young people in US are now very unfamiliar with buying gold for their own storage, they choose to invest in gold ETFs for convenience, and they complain about inflation and devaluation of $. This truth is completely different from the situation in Vietnam: Vietnamese investors do not have the concept of Gold Spot ETF, we buy and sell gold by grams/pieces/jewelry at precious metal stores ourselves, we self-store and lend gold to each other when necessary.

Hmm, let's check inflation in both:
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FP.CPI.TOTL.ZG?end=2022&locations=VN-US&start=1995

(https://i.imgur.com/iCwq4D7.png)

Let's check the parity of the dong versus the usd
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=VND&view=10Y

(https://i.imgur.com/iPS7gI0.png)

Weird, seems like the ones complaining are doing far better than the ones buying gold!  :P

So, looking at the numbers if we want to believe some gold purchases or bitcoin purchases could actually influence the economy of a country we should all dump out cold storage and go full into ETF  ;) But the reality is that both gold market and bitcoin markets are at this point irrelevant when we speak macros.
Apple sold iPhones and Macs worth half of the entire marketcap of BTC in one year!

Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MrSpasybo on January 19, 2024, 08:02:26 PM
So, looking at the numbers if we want to believe some gold purchases or bitcoin purchases could actually influence the economy of a country we should all dump out cold storage and go full into ETF  ;) But the reality is that both gold market and bitcoin markets are at this point irrelevant when we speak macros.
I'm not talking about the impact of Gold Spot ETF and BTC Spot ETF on asset price fluctuations or the national economy, I want to mention the negative impacts that BTC Spot ETF can cause to BTC's original mission and our financial freedom as the big guys pool BTC for their ETFs. Perhaps in the long term we will have more information to more accurately assess this risk.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Hamza2424 on January 19, 2024, 10:40:55 PM
You have made a good explanation here, I liked it and you are right, BTC Spot ETF and Future ETF both are poison for not only BTC market but for whole cryptocurrency market, the reason are same as you have mentioned, but for alt market, the reason is, BTC prices had direct and indirect impact on the price of alts. We see alts bleeding when the dominance of BTC increases and vice versa.

This whole ETF thing is not a good thing for the BTC itself, as it diverge people from using the BTC technology like Blockchain, wallets, exchange, dexs, etc. people using BTC ETF will not be aware of Blockchain technology and its benefits, and revolutions it can make. But I guess we don't need there time in BTC blockchain, we are getting what we need. And that is funds into BTC which is good for BTC dominance and for all investors.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MrSpasybo on January 20, 2024, 08:06:34 PM
You have made a good explanation here, I liked it and you are right, BTC Spot ETF and Future ETF both are poison for not only BTC market but for whole cryptocurrency market, the reason are same as you have mentioned, but for alt market, the reason is, BTC prices had direct and indirect impact on the price of alts. We see alts bleeding when the dominance of BTC increases and vice versa.

This whole ETF thing is not a good thing for the BTC itself, as it diverge people from using the BTC technology like Blockchain, wallets, exchange, dexs, etc. people using BTC ETF will not be aware of Blockchain technology and its benefits, and revolutions it can make. But I guess we don't need there time in BTC blockchain, we are getting what we need. And that is funds into BTC which is good for BTC dominance and for all investors.
In the medium term, perhaps the impact of Spot ETF on BTC and the entire crypto market will be very positive: more investors, more cash flow, more buying pressure, strong price increases, ATHs, profits for investors … Perhaps most investors only care about its negative impacts. Not many people want to change the way world finance works or want to support BTC in carrying out the revolution it was born with.

I hope that at some moment in future, when BTC has matured and reached very high prices, investors will become interested again in BTC's true mission in this world! Everything is not too late as long as we don't forget our dreams 💪
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Z-tight on January 20, 2024, 10:11:13 PM
There is so much speculation on what would happen in the long run, we have seen the short term movement and BTC dumped after the approval, the long term may be positive in terms of price, but it is still speculation for now.
Losing the historical mission of Bitcoin: In 2008, Satoshi Nakamoto introduced Bitcoin as a method for people to have the right to self-custody of money, not dependent on third parties, escaping the traditional financial model that has a lot of problems.
I will agree with you here, not your keys, not your coins and if you buy BTC spot etf’s you don’t control your coins and that is a bad decision. But we cannot stop people from doing what they want, people even store their funds in centralized exchanges which is even worse in my honest opinion.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: examplens on January 22, 2024, 12:07:01 PM
Losing the historical mission of Bitcoin: In 2008, Satoshi Nakamoto introduced Bitcoin as a method for people to have the right to self-custody of money, not dependent on third parties, escaping the traditional financial model that has a lot of problems.
I will agree with you here, not your keys, not your coins and if you buy BTC spot etf’s you don’t control your coins and that is a bad decision. But we cannot stop people from doing what they want, people even store their funds in centralized exchanges which is even worse in my honest opinion.

I accepted this as just another stress test for Bitcoin, perhaps the most difficult one yet.

In the meantime, probably the best meme for this ETF mess
(https://talkimg.com/images/2024/01/22/kSg3W.jpeg)
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MVL~$ on January 24, 2024, 09:00:44 AM
I remember back in 2017 or 2018 when almost everyone is talking about institutional money flowing into crypto but now that it's actually happening, we're having reservations. To be fair, the concerns are valid but this is what most traders want. I was also thinking that it will change the cycle that we know of but what else can we do? We can only sit back.

Now that Bitcoin ETF is already here, I'm hoping that none of these wealthy groups would collude and control the major miners.
Bitcoin faced this situation in 2018. I completely agree with you. I really don't understand what the current state of Bitcoin is due to ETFs or what it will be like in the future. But hopefully they will take action about it.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Peter90 on January 24, 2024, 10:10:13 AM
This whole ETF thing is not a good thing for the BTC itself, as it diverge people from using the BTC technology like Blockchain, wallets, exchange, dexs, etc. people using BTC ETF will not be aware of Blockchain technology and its benefits, and revolutions it can make.
But I guess we don't need there time in BTC blockchain, we are getting what we need. And that is funds into BTC which is good for BTC dominance and for all investors.

It's two different points of view

From the investor's point of view everything that pushes the BTC price up - like a BTC ETF - is good.

From the "political" point of view - how BTC can improve the "money system" - BTC price is not that important.
From this point of view, keyword is adoption: adoption as money, not as investment.


So will the introduction of BTC ETFs help adoption of BTC as money?
On one side yes, because the perception of BTC as a respected product will improve.
On the other side no, because focus will be on BTC as an investment, not as money.
Imo
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Stompix on January 24, 2024, 02:52:56 PM
You just have to love the change of views people have had in the last week on ETF, goes though all stages of human feelings

First we had:
Gary Gensler is a bitcoin hater, he is paid by bankers that's why he rejects bitcoin ETFs!

Now we're at next stage:
Bitcoin ETF are bad for Bitcoine, allowing them it's a plot by the bankers to destroy Bitcoin!

When there will be a price increase:
Money is flowing into ETF, muahaha the bankers can't do a thing, Bitcoin stonk!

I'm not talking about the impact of Gold Spot ETF and BTC Spot ETF on asset price fluctuations or the national economy, I want to mention the negative impacts that BTC Spot ETF can cause to BTC's original mission and our financial freedom as the big guys pool BTC for their ETFs.

And I was just drawing a parallel showing that the generation that dealt with paper gold was better off in terms of inflation that the one with actual gold!

Also, problem with the poison theory, the big guys "pooling" their BTC together wouldn't have had those BTC in the first place if they wouldn't have bought them, which brings us to a shitload of theoretically dismissed problems in the past:
- the weak hand are still here and are still selling a ton of coins for short profit, so most of adoption was investment for $ gains
- big guys can indeed buy a ton of coins without having to pay 1 million per coin as claimed before
- while buying they have increased the price a bit so, they allowed others to take profit on, which was good for the ones dumping (weak hands), right?
- people throwing billions at these means that more are interested in the $ value than BTC technicalities behind the coins, right?

So if you have people that owned coins and dumped them for fiat gains and people buying IU promised instead of hard coins, hmmm, isn't that how a free world where everyone is free to decide what to do with his money works?  ;D

You can't have freedom and imposing at the same time something to be used as by your personal wishes when somebody wants something else!
Remember it goes two ways:
Not your keys not your coins!
My keys, my coins my decision, not anyone else's business!
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Aanuoluwatofunmi on January 24, 2024, 04:07:44 PM
We can call Bitcoin ETF as any name we want to, if it's indeed a market poison then we shouldn't allow it to sting on us, so many investors had expected to see the market go high instead of being dip because they only think in one way and if you're going to be a successful investor, you must always have an alternative plan for other option, I know many were disappointed already from the way they see it happened after the approval for the market to go dip instead of bull.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Peter90 on January 24, 2024, 08:07:59 PM
I don't think in the future a time will come when people will start to use gold (physical) again instead of these Gold ETFs for convenience. Because it is a modern era and now we are into digitalization

The future is now  :D and it's called gold-backed stablecoins: physical gold stored in a vault, digital record of the ownership of that gold running on the blockchain, for convenience  :D
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: therozaq on January 25, 2024, 09:34:23 AM
We can call Bitcoin ETF as any name we want to, if it's indeed a market poison then we shouldn't allow it to sting on us, so many investors had expected to see the market go high instead of being dip because they only think in one way and if you're going to be a successful investor, you must always have an alternative plan for other option, I know many were disappointed already from the way they see it happened after the approval for the market to go dip instead of bull.

Yeah,  I saw many people who were disappointed after WTF was approved.  Previously, everyone thought that after the ETF was approved, the market would soar, but in fact it dropped. 

If you say this is poison, of course don't drink it. 
We have to be smart about responding to it.  We should take advantage of the drop moment by buying coins and hold ...
I think It's  a good way to do..
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Uruhara on January 25, 2024, 10:17:44 AM
Maybe BTC will remain Decentralized if it is held in our own hands in a wallet whose keys only we know. But if people become more familiar with Bitcoin ETFs then awareness of the purpose of BTC itself will fade. But hopefully young people in the future will maintain awareness of the importance of decentralization. But on the one hand, the Bitcoin ETF has also made a big contribution to making BTC better known to many people. And it could even be a catalyst for wider adoption. But when we small investors let our BTC be bought by big investors then this will only make the biggest holders have greater control. I personally might think about the long term benefits. But I also hope that the purpose of BTC itself remains intact. But honestly, maybe I'm more concerned about the price increase that will occur.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Charles-Tim on January 25, 2024, 10:49:11 AM
The future is now  :D and it's called gold-backed stablecoins: physical gold stored in a vault, digital record of the ownership of that gold running on the blockchain, for convenience  :D
How are you very sure that the gold are stored somewhere? Also if A is backed by something, that does not mean A is that thing. Gold-backed stable coins are not gold. That means their price can depeg. The second thing is that you can check the price of gold in 2011 and 2019 and now and see that it is better to hold bitcoin instead. Bitcoin marketcap is still low and the price will increase better and should be the digital asset of choice.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: NikeFit_7777 on January 25, 2024, 11:06:09 AM
I want to share some very interesting charts and a few about them.

— Trading volume is down, one week after the spot ETF was accepted.
— Miners continue to dump bitcoin at the market price (which is fine with them, as we can see).

1. Or they know something in advance. And we are in for a correction.
2. Or they are stockpiling funds to buy equipment before the halving.

P.S. Nobody really knows the truth. As always only guesswork.  8)

(https://i.ibb.co/9ZtjGk2/photo-2024-01-25-11-57-41.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/QDFyP8x/photo-2024-01-25-11-57-48.jpg)
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Papusha20 on January 25, 2024, 11:22:47 AM
Losing the historical mission of Bitcoin: In 2008, Satoshi Nakamoto introduced Bitcoin as a method for people to have the right to self-custody of money, not dependent on third parties, escaping the traditional financial model that has a lot of problems.
I will agree with you here, not your keys, not your coins and if you buy BTC spot etf’s you don’t control your coins and that is a bad decision. But we cannot stop people from doing what they want, people even store their funds in centralized exchanges which is even worse in my honest opinion.

I accepted this as just another stress test for Bitcoin, perhaps the most difficult one yet.

In the meantime, probably the best meme for this ETF mess
(https://talkimg.com/images/2024/01/22/kSg3W.jpeg)

The price of Bitcoin is only moving lower since the Bitcoin ETF is approved, because the Bitcoin ETF will be approved. Investors began to buy bitcoins in large numbers on this hope and the price of bitcoins mostly increased. But soon after the approval of the Bitcoin ETF, the price of Bitcoin fell to 38k, which could be a nuisance for investors. After the approval of Bitcoin ETF, the price of the coin did not rise, but rather the price of Bitcoin went down.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Stompix on January 25, 2024, 12:23:54 PM
I want to share some very interesting charts and a few about them.

— Miners continue to dump bitcoin at the market price (which is fine with them, as we can see).

1. Or they know something in advance. And we are in for a correction.
2. Or they are stockpiling funds to buy equipment before the halving.

Miner here and I'm really curious about this, like 10000001% genuine curious why would that be the case!
First thing first, miners have expenses, they need to sell their earned coins to pay for bills, you can't run otherwise unless you're some hobbies miners, but when you have a 200MW farm there is no way you can come with that monthly amount from your piggy bank!

Second, why would they sell bitcoin now when the reward is going to halve? The only reason why you would do that is if you would know the price is going to make for that and much more, so you're looking at a halving an a 300% in price, at which point , why the f word are you going to sell Bitcoins if you know you can make 300% by just holding?

I'm serious, ELI5 this to me as I see nothing logical in this actions if this would be true!
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: elbans89 on January 25, 2024, 12:36:14 PM
up  to you, if you call ETF is market poison.
I think ETF is good for crypto currency market.
But be careful,  I still learn why after ETF approved, bitcoin price went down.
although crypto is volatile, but many investors have predicted, bitcoin will rise after ETF approved.
But this prediction wrong.
We all know, demand is the basic factor of the price.
But Bitcoin should go up after ETF approved.
It seems manipulation.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Peter90 on January 25, 2024, 07:19:46 PM
The future is now  :D and it's called gold-backed stablecoins: physical gold stored in a vault, digital record of the ownership of that gold running on the blockchain, for convenience  :D
How are you very sure that the gold are stored somewhere? Also if A is backed by something, that does not mean A is that thing. Gold-backed stable coins are not gold. That means their price can depeg.

Hi CT,
this thread is about BTC, so let's not hijack it  :D
So very shortly:

"How are you very sure that the gold are stored somewhere?"
By letting the metals be audited by an independent, internationally renown company specialised in auditing precious metals.
I have addressed the audit subject in this thread Tether Gold (XAUt) (https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=315185.15)
This is an example (https://kinesis.money/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Kinesis-Audit-October-2023.pdf) of how such an audit looks like
For professional and institutional investors such an audit is good enough, it's good enough for me too.


"if A is backed by something, that does not mean A is that thing. Gold-backed stable coins are not gold. That means their price can depeg."
No it can't.
As long as each coin is backed by a piece of gold, the price of that coin can't depeg.

Those coins are the title of ownership of the gold.
For example - I'm talking about kinesis - 1 KAU represents the title of ownership of 1 gram of gold.
The price of that title of ownership is the same as the price of 1 gram of gold.

The price of that piece of paper representing the title of ownership of your car is the same as the price of your car.
The price of that document representing the title of ownership of that apartment is the same as the price of that apartment.
As long as there is no fraud, there can't be no depeg.

Compare the price of KAU (https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/kinesis-gold) with the price of 1 gram of gold

Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: TomPluz on January 26, 2024, 03:45:17 AM

Looking back at Gold Spot ETF in 2004, following its launch, gold prices increased significantly through 2011, but stagnated over the next decade. Young people in US are now very unfamiliar with buying gold for their own storage, they choose to invest in gold ETFs for convenience, and they complain about inflation and devaluation of $. This truth is completely different from the situation in Vietnam: Vietnamese investors do not have the concept of Gold Spot ETF, we buy and sell gold by grams/pieces/jewelry at precious metal stores ourselves, we self-store and lend gold to each other when necessary.


There are many positive and negative views on ETF most especially what will be its impact on the asset which is in this case is Bitcoin. While I am really looking forward and highly expecting that once an ETF is approved by SEC, there will be a push for BTC to immediately get into a new ATH...but sadly my expectation never materialized as right now we are experiencing a big correction. So I am wondering...what is happening? Is there a correlation between ETF and the dip right now? In the past, I read articles cautioning people on ETF and they based their analysis to that of gold which we know failed to accelerate its growth in the past many years. Will the fate of gold be the same thing for Bitcoin now that we have the ETF operating in the market? Seems to me that I got more questions than answers...in the end all we can do is wait for what will be. I now remember a remark made by Gary Gensler - a man I do not like heading SEC - and essentially he said that ETF is actually centralization...away from the main concept of Bitcoin which is decentralization. And that is something we should remember and maybe revisit years from now.







Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Stompix on January 26, 2024, 04:24:54 PM
While I am really looking forward and highly expecting that once an ETF is approved by SEC, there will be a push for BTC to immediately get into a new ATH...but sadly my expectation never materialized as right now we are experiencing a big correction. So I am wondering...what is happening?

Bitcoin was at $15.4K per Btc in November, it hit 3x a few weeks ago, why?
Because the ETF positive news were already priced in, there was a schedule, there were already hundreds of things pointing that a rejection will not happen, there was a legal case that forced them to either say yes or no and there were little arguments for a no, so rather than looking at the 10% loss from  January 11th , better look at the 200% gain we had for no reason if we exclude the fomo about ETF that dominated all the news in the last three months!

And this will be the playbook for the halving also, too many area already treating the jump as aa set in stone event, there will be a lot of profit taking a lot of disappointed faces when they won't see lottery style in a year!

I now remember a remark made by Gary Gensler - a man I do not like heading SEC - and essentially he said that ETF is actually centralization...away from the main concept of Bitcoin which is decentralization.

Well, let's be honest about, if Butterin fart in his sleep tonight and wakes up scared of that you have ETH changed to POW next month!
Ethereum is centralized around him, there is no decentralization when nobody can go against one person's vote, no matter the size of the majority.

Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Aanuoluwatofunmi on January 26, 2024, 08:09:29 PM
While I am really looking forward and highly expecting that once an ETF is approved by SEC, there will be a push for BTC to immediately get into a new ATH...but sadly my expectation never materialized as right now we are experiencing a big correction. So I am wondering...what is happening?

Bitcoin was at $15.4K per Btc in November, it hit 3x a few weeks ago, why?
Because the ETF positive news were already priced in, there was a schedule, there were already hundreds of things pointing that a rejection will not happen, there was a legal case that forced them to either say yes or no and there were little arguments for a no, so rather than looking at the 10% loss from  January 11th , better look at the 200% gain we had for no reason if we exclude the fomo about ETF that dominated all the news in the last three months!

Well we cannot say that Bitcoin ETF has not brought in some significant change to the crypto market with it's effects more on bitcoin, this is because as we all expect to see the approval come through, the hopes on it begins to rise and that alone make the market speculations more unpredictable to the extent that we achieved that high after a long dip, it shouldn't be a surprise anymore to me about seing Bitcoin falling after the ETF approval.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: doc on January 27, 2024, 11:36:25 AM

Well we cannot say that Bitcoin ETF has not brought in some significant change to the crypto market with it's effects more on bitcoin, this is because as we all expect to see the approval come through, the hopes on it begins to rise and that alone make the market speculations more unpredictable to the extent that we achieved that high after a long dip, it shouldn't be a surprise anymore to me about seing Bitcoin falling after the ETF approval.

I think ETF bitcoin don't have big effect to bitcoin price.
After ETF approved bitcoin goes down.
This seems strange,  Bitcoin should be going up but it's actually going down. 
Previously, people predicted that Bitcoin would rise after the ETF was approved, but it turned out to be the opposite.
I didn't surprise, because the character of bitcoin is unpredictable.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: yohananaomi on January 29, 2024, 06:51:48 PM
I think ETF bitcoin don't have big effect to bitcoin price.
After ETF approved bitcoin goes down.
This seems strange,  Bitcoin should be going up but it's actually going down. 
Previously, people predicted that Bitcoin would rise after the ETF was approved, but it turned out to be the opposite.
I didn't surprise, because the character of bitcoin is unpredictable.
That's the reality of what happened. You were right after the ETF approval and earning a lot of bitcoin, and the price actually corrected. There seems to be a sense of concern from the market about this, and this is normal because every time there is a new development, it can have a negative or immediate positive impact; it just depends on the situation. But I believe that this situation is due to panic for just a moment; it is certain that later it will run well and will contribute to the increase in bitcoin. We wait patiently for this.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MrSpasybo on January 29, 2024, 07:15:02 PM
I think ETF bitcoin don't have big effect to bitcoin price.
After ETF approved bitcoin goes down.
This seems strange,  Bitcoin should be going up but it's actually going down. 
Previously, people predicted that Bitcoin would rise after the ETF was approved, but it turned out to be the opposite.
I didn't surprise, because the character of bitcoin is unpredictable.
That's the reality of what happened. You were right after the ETF approval and earning a lot of bitcoin, and the price actually corrected. There seems to be a sense of concern from the market about this, and this is normal because every time there is a new development, it can have a negative or immediate positive impact; it just depends on the situation. But I believe that this situation is due to panic for just a moment; it is certain that later it will run well and will contribute to the increase in bitcoin. We wait patiently for this.
I believe that from the perspective of BTC price, Spot ETF has a positive impact because it attracts more cash flow into this market. The recent correction is simply a short-term price decline, due to sell-the-news and repeated price behavior at Fibo 0.786 like the previous 3 recoveries. I am not surprised by this, I pay more attention to the mission of BTC created by Satoshi at the start of crypto era!

(https://www.tradingview.com/x/hDyh469i/)
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: NikeFit_7777 on January 30, 2024, 12:47:09 PM
I think ETF bitcoin don't have big effect to bitcoin price.
After ETF approved bitcoin goes down.
This seems strange,  Bitcoin should be going up but it's actually going down. 
Previously, people predicted that Bitcoin would rise after the ETF was approved, but it turned out to be the opposite.
I didn't surprise, because the character of bitcoin is unpredictable.
Exactly right, adopting a spot ETF is a gamble. It's normal for BTC to fall and then rise. Any asset does that. It's always the other way around. Just when everyone expects a miracle, often there is no miracle. It happens, it's normal. Do you think it won't happen with other ETFs? Yeah, sure. Again the SEC will manipulate, and in the aftermath, only make money off a deal like this. It's not the first time. ;D

P.S. In the picture below, the rise in new BTC addresses indicates a growing wave of investor interest. That's just a statistic, how it really is, it's hard to say.

(https://i.ibb.co/FHKZ6SM/photo-2024-01-29-19-17-06.jpg)
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Baofeng on January 30, 2024, 12:53:22 PM
I think ETF bitcoin don't have big effect to bitcoin price.
After ETF approved bitcoin goes down.
This seems strange,  Bitcoin should be going up but it's actually going down. 
Previously, people predicted that Bitcoin would rise after the ETF was approved, but it turned out to be the opposite.
I didn't surprise, because the character of bitcoin is unpredictable.
That's the reality of what happened. You were right after the ETF approval and earning a lot of bitcoin, and the price actually corrected. There seems to be a sense of concern from the market about this, and this is normal because every time there is a new development, it can have a negative or immediate positive impact; it just depends on the situation. But I believe that this situation is due to panic for just a moment; it is certain that later it will run well and will contribute to the increase in bitcoin. We wait patiently for this.

I'm not sure what investors are going to panic and push the sell button because of the ETF approval, it's what the opposite that we are expecting? Nevertheless, it's amost end of the month, the market has rebounded @43,500.

But yes, patience indeed is needed right now. It's hard to predict the movement, and the effect to the market is too early to say. However, I think in the long run, it could be positive, specially right after the halving, the price could slowly growth because of the activity and the ETF approval.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: pakhitheboss on January 30, 2024, 01:31:17 PM

Bitcoin was at $15.4K per Btc in November, it hit 3x a few weeks ago, why?
Because the ETF positive news were already priced in, there was a schedule, there were already hundreds of things pointing that a rejection will not happen, there was a legal case that forced them to either say yes or no and there were little arguments for a no, so rather than looking at the 10% loss from  January 11th , better look at the 200% gain we had for no reason if we exclude the fomo about ETF that dominated all the news in the last three months!

And this will be the playbook for the halving also, too many area already treating the jump as aa set in stone event, there will be a lot of profit taking a lot of disappointed faces when they won't see lottery style in a year!


A great insight and a good reply I do not understand the reason why after the ETF speculations were over, Bitcoin never made it to the moon or in simple words got the spike that everyone was expecting. If you know the reason then please do explain as it will help me understand the political urgency behind approving Bitcoin ETFs with minute changes by the SEC. Mind you the first Bitcoin ETF was filed in 2013 and it was straight forward rejected by SEC. So, what suddenly got changed?
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: retreat on January 30, 2024, 01:57:13 PM
I don't think that the Bitcoin ETF is poisoning the Bitcoin market, but it just makes the Bitcoin market become saturated and tends to be more volatile because too many people are speculating on it. Also, there is no need to worry too much about Bitcoin ETFs making people forget about Bitcoin, because Bitcoin will still be known by more people and there will be more adopters than there are now.
The point is how we as Bitcoin holders continue to educate people about Bitcoin and continue to strive for Bitcoin to be accessible to many people in the future.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Stompix on January 30, 2024, 03:08:08 PM
If you know the reason then please do explain as it will help me understand the political urgency behind approving Bitcoin ETFs with minute changes by the SEC. Mind you the first Bitcoin ETF was filed in 2013 and it was straight forward rejected by SEC. So, what suddenly got changed?

The SEC has a program on which it approves and evaluates ETF, from the initial submission it must act in 240 days, by either rejecting it or approving it, ARK had a filling in 2021 (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1869699/000119312521201955/d165184ds1.htm), it was rejected multiple times and it reached another date (this January) when again a final decision was needed. Since the SEC was most likely going to approve it, it though just as everyone else that since the others are also going to be approved next months better to approve them all in one batch to not give just one of them a critical lead and distort the market.

So the urgency was basically not allowing one single entity to get a head start while the others had a delay!
At the same time it could not reject ARK and then approve the others based on the same principles in March, nor could they reject ARK now and then approve them in March as this rejection would have been final.

That's why almost everyone knew they would goin to get approval, and the reason why the market climbed!
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MrSpasybo on January 30, 2024, 07:48:12 PM
I don't think that the Bitcoin ETF is poisoning the Bitcoin market, but it just makes the Bitcoin market become saturated and tends to be more volatile because too many people are speculating on it. Also, there is no need to worry too much about Bitcoin ETFs making people forget about Bitcoin, because Bitcoin will still be known by more people and there will be more adopters than there are now.
The point is how we as Bitcoin holders continue to educate people about Bitcoin and continue to strive for Bitcoin to be accessible to many people in the future.
Yeah, I also hope that the Bitcoin community will continue to promote and educate people about Bitcoin's mission instead of focusing on investing and seeking profits from financial instruments like BTC ETFs. Every event in this market has positive and negative effects, it would be good if we took advantage of the positive effects to protect the Bitcoin revolution.

Should we advise investors to buy their own and custodial BTC instead of buying the BTC Spot ETF? And do you think this is effective?
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: yohananaomi on February 01, 2024, 08:16:51 PM
That's the reality of what happened. You were right after the ETF approval and earning a lot of bitcoin, and the price actually corrected. There seems to be a sense of concern from the market about this, and this is normal because every time there is a new development, it can have a negative or immediate positive impact; it just depends on the situation. But I believe that this situation is due to panic for just a moment; it is certain that later it will run well and will contribute to the increase in bitcoin. We wait patiently for this.
I believe that from the perspective of BTC price, Spot ETF has a positive impact because it attracts more cash flow into this market. The recent correction is simply a short-term price decline, due to sell-the-news and repeated price behavior at Fibo 0.786 like the previous 3 recoveries. I am not surprised by this, I pay more attention to the mission of BTC created by Satoshi at the start of crypto era!

(https://www.tradingview.com/x/hDyh469i/)
That's right, friend; however, in time, the ETF will make a very positive contribution and will give Bitcoin the ability to continue to develop and strengthen so that it can move better. Indeed, we just have to wait for the momentum to happen because there is always a process that must be gone through first, but we are optimistic that it will happen because what you say is true: that the BTC mission carried out by Satoshi has predicted everything.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: pakhitheboss on February 02, 2024, 01:53:22 PM

The SEC has a program on which it approves and evaluates ETF, from the initial submission it must act in 240 days, by either rejecting it or approving it, ARK had a filling in 2021 (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1869699/000119312521201955/d165184ds1.htm), it was rejected multiple times and it reached another date (this January) when again a final decision was needed. Since the SEC was most likely going to approve it, it though just as everyone else that since the others are also going to be approved next months better to approve them all in one batch to not give just one of them a critical lead and distort the market.

So the urgency was basically not allowing one single entity to get a head start while the others had a delay!
At the same time it could not reject ARK and then approve the others based on the same principles in March, nor could they reject ARK now and then approve them in March as this rejection would have been final.

That's why almost everyone knew they would goin to get approval, and the reason why the market climbed!

Understood and I do not disagree with your response, whereas I have a different understanding which you might call a rumor. In 2013 the first application for Bitcoin ETF was submitted to the SEC and as we know it was not approved. It took 11 years for the SEC to realize the importance of Bitcoin ETF and a day before the approval their x.com handle was hacked. Looks fishy to me as SEC is always promoting how to safeguard an account from getting hacked and they did not use 2FA to safeguard their handle.

Coming back to my analysis this is not about technicalities but it is about geopolitics.  De-dollarization is a term that you would have heard to and you know how it is slowly taking place. Another major thing that happened was that China successfully used its proxy control to become a hub of cryptocurrencies. In the meantime some Middle Eastern countries stopped accepting petrol dollars, I won't go into deep with it, but if you do a Google search you will find many links to those articles.

The US with its current debt and with de-dollarization surrounding it knows the USD will become more dysfunctional in the future and the only way to save its economy is to invest in a commodity that is not understood by any other governments of the world except a few. Their banking sector is the most vulnerable and we have already seen a few banks collapse last year. It now needs something new apart from the gold reserve it has to control the globe.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Stompix on February 02, 2024, 04:20:32 PM
Understood and I do not disagree with your response, whereas I have a different understanding which you might call a rumor. In 2013 the first application for Bitcoin ETF was submitted to the SEC and as we know it was not approved. It took 11 years for the SEC to realize the importance of Bitcoin ETF

There is nothing about importance in those decisions!
Blackrock has an ETF that tracks products which are used by people over 60+
https://www.ishares.com/uk/individual/en/products/284218/ishares-ageing-population-ucits-etf?switchLocale=y&siteEntryPassthrough=true
Quote
The Fund seeks to track the performance of an index composed of developed and emerging market companies which are generating significant revenues from the growing needs of the world’s ageing population (defined as people aged 60 years and above).

There is a Global Gender Equality ETF
https://www.justetf.com/en/etf-profile.html?isin=IE00BDR5H412#overview

So nothing about the importance but more about how that ETF is run, the SEC doesn't care if you have an ETF on watching grass grow as long as you follow the rules.

De-dollarization is a term that you would have heard to and you know how it is slowly taking place.

De-dollarization is a myth regurgitated by russian and chinese propaganda.
To which currency is your payout tied both here and on BTT? $!!!!!!!
Show me one signature campaign that pays in chinese yuan, russian rubles, rupiah, rials and then talk about de-dollarization!

Oh, let's go to the shop on this forum:
https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=315406.0

$ is mentioned 40 times! How many times is the yuan or any other currency?
De-dollarization my ass!

In the meantime some Middle Eastern countries stopped accepting petrol dollars, I won't go into deep with it, but if you do a Google search you will find many links to those articles.

Do name them and it better not be Saudi Arabia or UAE cause their currency is pegged to the dollar!  ;D ;D

Another major thing that happened was that China successfully used its proxy control to become a hub of cryptocurrencies.

Most miners > US!
Most nodes > US!
Most LN nodes >US!
Most Bitcoin ATM > US!
Most shops accepting bitcoin > US!

Where's China on these?
Seriously, stop listening to fearmongering and look at FACTS!
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: legend45 on February 02, 2024, 06:13:12 PM

Yeah, I also hope that the Bitcoin community will continue to promote and educate people about Bitcoin's mission instead of focusing on investing and seeking profits from financial instruments like BTC ETFs. Every event in this market has positive and negative effects, it would be good if we took advantage of the positive effects to protect the Bitcoin revolution.

Should we advise investors to buy their own and custodial BTC instead of buying the BTC Spot ETF? And do you think this is effective?


Yeah I think It's effective, ETF bitcoin is financial instruments that make invest bitcoin easily.
But If there is people said it poison, I don't think it's poison. But  ETF bitcoin will have good effect for bitcoin market. 
As you said we can continue to promote bitcoin and educate other. They can use ETF bitcoin too.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Peter90 on February 02, 2024, 07:36:13 PM
De-dollarization is a myth regurgitated by russian and chinese propaganda.
To which currency is your payout tied both here and on BTT? $!!!!!!!
Show me one signature campaign that pays in chinese yuan, russian rubles, rupiah, rials and then talk about de-dollarization!

Oh, let's go to the shop on this forum:
https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=315406.0

$ is mentioned 40 times! How many times is the yuan or any other currency?
De-dollarization my ass!

In the meantime some Middle Eastern countries stopped accepting petrol dollars, I won't go into deep with it, but if you do a Google search you will find many links to those articles.

Do name them and it better not be Saudi Arabia or UAE cause their currency is pegged to the dollar!  ;D ;D

Another major thing that happened was that China successfully used its proxy control to become a hub of cryptocurrencies.

Most miners > US!
Most nodes > US!
Most LN nodes >US!
Most Bitcoin ATM > US!
Most shops accepting bitcoin > US!

Where's China on these?
Seriously, stop listening to fearmongering and look at FACTS!

Very aggressive tone
You are trying to intimidate other users, both those whom you address - in this case pakhitheboss - and those who read.
People like you are poison for a discussion community


That said
you don't know what are you talking about Stompix

De-dollarisation doesn't mean other currencies are more used that the $, so your examples of the $ being used more than other currencies don't mean squat.
De-dollarisation is a trend

This is a chart of USD as world reserve currency

(https://wolfstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Global-Reserve-Currencies-IMF-COFER-2023-01-01-USD-share-short.png)

As a international trade settlement currency the $ is being more and more abandoned in favour of national currencies, and if you are not aware of it there is nothing we can do for you Stompix




De-dollarization is a myth regurgitated by russian and chinese propaganda.

Seriously, stop listening to fearmongering and look at FACTS!

so those saying de-dollarisation is taking place, they are ... ignorant, fearmongering tools regurgitating Chinese/Russian propaganda.
Classic intimidating, smearing and defaming
People like you are poison for a discussion community Stompix

Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Stompix on February 02, 2024, 08:02:39 PM
Keep laughing Stompix

I will, I've seen the death of the dollar 100 times till now!
You know why I mentioned russian propaganda, it was because I was a victim of it!!!!!!

Every day in at the TV we were told how the US is crumbling, how there is a civil war there, how there is hunger and death and then at 4AM I was forced to wait in line till I went to school and my mother would took my place in the ratio queue to buy the milk that would arrive 4 hours later. And then I would go back home and listen on the radio how great out country is, how the west is going down all while repeating to memorize by heart the brochure of the little patriot while my parents would go out for the next ration for the week.

12 years of hunger waiting for the death of the dollar and here we are 34 years later still speaking of the death of the dollar!
You, me and this forum will go the same way the USSR has and leave this world has and people will still use the dollar, no matter how many veins you pop in anger!

Oh and telling facts and not fearmongering out of hate is toxic? Good, then I'm toxic!

I just don't want other to fell in the same trap that two generation of my people have done so, living their life just with the hope that the other guy across the pond will finally some day live a worse life than theirs, because this is all you picture here, death to the other guy because he does better than you, no inspiration to pass him normally, shoot him dead because you know you will never be able to reach his level.

Enjoy your rubles or yuan, because well...seems like you're the only one wanting them!
Oh btw, let me rub a bit of salt on your wounds, how's the de-dollarization happening in Argentina?  ;D ;D
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Carbitcoin on February 02, 2024, 08:09:01 PM
The investment funds that followed Black Rock and Fidelity in filing for Bitcoin ETFs manage assets of about $18 trillion, which significantly exceeds the size of the cryptocurrency market and Bitcoin's capitalization.  Therefore, even a small part of the funds allocated to ETFs will form the basis for a new bull market and an increase in the value of the first cryptocurrency.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MrSpasybo on February 02, 2024, 09:36:46 PM
The investment funds that followed Black Rock and Fidelity in filing for Bitcoin ETFs manage assets of about $18 trillion, which significantly exceeds the size of the cryptocurrency market and Bitcoin's capitalization.  Therefore, even a small part of the funds allocated to ETFs will form the basis for a new bull market and an increase in the value of the first cryptocurrency.
Yeah, if just 1% of BlackRock's investors want to buy BTC Spot ETF to diversify assets, huge cash flows will flow into the market (and that's happening every day) and push BTC price up. That is the positive impact of BTC Spot ETF on the price chart in the crypto market in the short term.

But let's not forget the long-term issues related to BTC's mission and the financial revolution initiated by Satoshi Nakamoto. BTC Spot ETF could weaken them by turning BTC into a Wall Street tool 😱
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: debra on February 02, 2024, 09:42:16 PM
Yeah I think It's effective, ETF bitcoin is financial instruments that make invest bitcoin easily.
But If there is people said it poison, I don't think it's poison. But  ETF bitcoin will have good effect for bitcoin market. 
As you said we can continue to promote bitcoin and educate other. They can use ETF bitcoin too.
You're right. With ETF spot market, it will be easier to have Bitcoin investment. People will also more trust Bitcoin because it is in ETF spot market. No, it is not a poison. Why call it as a poison? With Bitcoin, the ETF market will have more interesting. Crypto and Bitcoin will be more well known in the future. This will make people be more aware about the potential of Bitcoin and crypto for the future.

Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Peter90 on February 03, 2024, 10:37:57 AM
In the meantime some Middle Eastern countries stopped accepting petrol dollars, I won't go into deep with it, but if you do a Google search you will find many links to those articles.

Do name them and it better not be Saudi Arabia or UAE cause their currency is pegged to the dollar!  ;D ;D

Stompix
Saudi Arabia and AUE are oil exporters, not importers.
They are sellers, not buyers.
They don’t give their currency to other countries.
They accept buyer's currency.
What the currencies of Saudi Arabia and AUE are pegged to, is completely irrelevant

Petro-dollar system = buying countries need $ in order to pay
De-dollarisation = buying countries don’t need $ anymore.

When talking about de-dollarisation, what the currencies of the sellers are pegged to, is completely irrelevant



But that's not the problem Stompix. I'm not a genius myself.
The problem is your intimidating rhetoric, with the regurgitating (--> vomiting --> defecating...) ... the Chinese and Russian propaganda ... the CAPITAL LETTERS... the exclamation marks !!!... the fearmongering... the laughing smileys ...
People like you intimidate users away from participating actively in these discussion communities. Nobody wants to get treated like you did with pakhitheboss
I've seen forums reduced to moribund because people like you were let free to roam around
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Stompix on February 03, 2024, 08:46:26 PM
Stompix
Saudi Arabia and AUE are oil exporters, not importers.
They are sellers, not buyers.
They don’t give their currency to other countries.
They accept buyer's currency.

And the difference is .....
Because if you want to pay with dirhams for example when you buy dirhams the UAE buys USD, just like tether to keep the peg.
If you want to pay with rubles or rupiah...Oh well, nobody wants them anyhow:
https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/oil-and-gas/no-takers-for-rupee-payment-for-oil-imports/106259302

Quote
New Delhi: India's push for rupee to be used to pay for import of crude oil has not found any takers as suppliers have expressed concern on repatriation of funds and high transactional costs, the oil ministry told a parliamentary standing committee.

See, it doesn't work, so they switched to paying in dirhams or usd, and as I told you above, this involves in both cases a need for USD.

What the currencies of Saudi Arabia and AUE are pegged to, is completely irrelevant

Irrelevant for somebody who doesn't know how a peg works!
You know what happens when you don't have enough USD cash reserves to keep it?
Zimbabwe happens!
https://www.ft.com/content/ff904148-351b-11e9-bb0c-42459962a812

But that's not the problem Stompix. I'm not a genius myself. The problem is your intimidating rhetoric

Grow some balls and a spine!

If de-dollarization would be happening, why is every single of those revolutionary currencies losing against the dollar?
If this thing is happening, why are we here talking about US ETF and nobody gives a damn about Iranian Bitcoin ETF, or Chinese Bitcoin ETF?
Why are all the eyes in Bitcoin related forums and and social media focused on the US and nobody cares about others?
Do you have a real explanation for it that would hold water?
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Faisal2202 on February 03, 2024, 09:01:33 PM
The future is now  :D and it's called gold-backed stablecoins: physical gold stored in a vault, digital record of the ownership of that gold running on the blockchain, for convenience  :D
I know how Gold ETFs are being traded and are pegged with real-world gold for the convenience of people to trade in it. I was trying to emphasize the importance of digitalization and automation, the world is changing and physical gold has been replaced with digital gold, but I didn't know the transactions of these digital gold are also being recorded on the blockchain.

This really makes things transparent but why would a person chose a blockchain method if he is using the centralized method already, giving up on the anonymity factor. So why use blockchain as in my opinion for Gold it is a little bit risky.

But if blockchain is only being used to prove ownership then that's another case.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Peter90 on February 04, 2024, 05:33:39 PM

Grow some balls and a spine!


Reported

@TomPluz @sirty143 @alltalk
I always like this forum because of the relaxed climate here. That's why I'm not going to react. I don't know if you are able to handle this kind of people, until now I never saw one of them on this forum. Through teleporting many new users are entering, unfortunately teleporting doesn't filter. If user pakhitheboss had reacted with the same tone this guy treated him (https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=315187.30) the situation would have degenerated into classic forum bickering. Let him do it, others will start doing the same. Bickering everywhere. Many will refrain from posting. Active participation will decrease. People will leave. It’s up to you.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Peter90 on February 04, 2024, 07:20:53 PM
The future is now  :D and it's called gold-backed stablecoins: physical gold stored in a vault, digital record of the ownership of that gold running on the blockchain, for convenience  :D
I know how Gold ETFs are being traded and are pegged with real-world gold for the convenience of people to trade in it. I was trying to emphasize the importance of digitalization and automation, the world is changing and physical gold has been replaced with digital gold, but I didn't know the transactions of these digital gold are also being recorded on the blockchain.

This really makes things transparent but why would a person chose a blockchain method if he is using the centralized method already, giving up on the anonymity factor. So why use blockchain as in my opinion for Gold it is a little bit risky.

But if blockchain is only being used to prove ownership then that's another case.

Hi Faisal
You are right in saying that coins and bars cannot be used as money anymore.
Digitalisation and automation, indeed.

ETF shares cannot be used as money either.
They are a vehicle to invest in gold, not to pay with gold: You can neither go to the restaurant and pay with ETF shares, not can you buy on eBay those shoes and pay with ETF shares, nor can you send 3 ETF shares to your brother.
As money ETF shares are useless.

This is were blockchain technology is going to revolutionise our money system: in allowing the hardest currency in history to become money again, as gold-backed blockchain based currencies.


"why would a person chose a blockchain method if he is using the centralized method already, giving up on the anonymity factor."
I got the same question a couple of days ago here (https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=315185.msg1487270#msg1487270), so as I've not much to say  :D I'm going to repeat myself.

It's a trade off Faisal: opportunity vs. anonymity

For some people the opportunity of buying/selling gold with minimal spreads... sending/receiving it digitally... having it stored in fully insured, military-grade security vaults... managing everything directly through your smartphone (no financial advisors who know everything you do...)... the chance of paying directly with your precious metals through a debit card, no need of a bank account! (which is important for unbanked and underbanked people) (... but also for fully banked people who don't like banks :D )... extremely low minimum trading amounts... the option of redempting the coins and getting the corresponding physical sent at home...

... for some people - think for ex. of the Indonesian who are registering in the PosPay app (https://bullionecosystem.com/tag/kinesis-monetary-indonesia/) of the Indonesian Postal Service - these opportunities are more important than anonymity

Between opportunity and anonymity there is no right or wrong choice. We are different and we live in different situations.
It's a personal choice.

But it is important that you look at this issue not only from the point of view of a crypto user but also from the point of view of ordinary people: the primary role of gold-backed crypto currencies - in my view - is to serve ordinary people, not crypto traders


Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: de_prof on February 05, 2024, 02:01:08 AM
No, I think Bitcoin Spot ETF isn't poison, It's a good thing which will make bitcoin price will increase. Why we think It's poison ?
I think ETF proposal is the result of researchbefore. So, Bitcoiners already think it will improve the bitcoin price when bullish
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Bitcoin_people on February 05, 2024, 03:03:25 AM
After the approval of Bitcoin ETF, the price of Bitcoin increased significantly, we saw a lot of news about this in the beginning of 2024. Moreover fake news has been seen a lot including that a twitter account was hacked anyway after seeing everything later bitcoin change after bitcoin ETF approval was published. But we can say for sure that the price of Bitcoin will go to a higher position this year, because it increases a lot after the approval of Bitcoin ETF. Moreover, since Bitcoin's halving is ahead, it threatens to reach higher levels soon. Since the approval of Bitcoin ETF, the number of investors will increase and the demand for Bitcoin will continue to increase and after the halving, the price of more Bitcoins will reach the highest level.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Sim_card on February 05, 2024, 03:11:58 PM
In the meantime some Middle Eastern countries stopped accepting petrol dollars, I won't go into deep with it, but if you do a Google search you will find many links to those articles.

Do name them and it better not be Saudi Arabia or UAE cause their currency is pegged to the dollar!  ;D ;D

Stompix
Saudi Arabia and AUE are oil exporters, not importers.
They are sellers, not buyers.
They don’t give their currency to other countries.
They accept buyer's currency.
What the currencies of Saudi Arabia and AUE are pegged to, is completely irrelevant

Petro-dollar system = buying countries need $ in order to pay
De-dollarisation = buying countries don’t need $ anymore.

When talking about de-dollarisation, what the currencies of the sellers are pegged to, is completely irrelevant



But that's not the problem Stompix. I'm not a genius myself.
The problem is your intimidating rhetoric, with the regurgitating (--> vomiting --> defecating...) ... the Chinese and Russian propaganda ... the CAPITAL LETTERS... the exclamation marks !!!... the fearmongering... the laughing smileys ...
People like you intimidate users away from participating actively in these discussion communities. Nobody wants to get treated like you did with pakhitheboss
I've seen forums reduced to moribund because people like you were let free to roam around
It is only if the US is no longer the world power that there will be DE dollarization. As long as the US is still in power, USD remains the primary reserve funds. After World War 2, was when US became the economy world power. I don't think that dedollarisation will happen soon, maybe in our next generation, because I don't see any country that is strong enough to take power from the US currently.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Aanuoluwatofunmi on February 05, 2024, 05:39:28 PM
The investment funds that followed Black Rock and Fidelity in filing for Bitcoin ETFs manage assets of about $18 trillion, which significantly exceeds the size of the cryptocurrency market and Bitcoin's capitalization.  Therefore, even a small part of the funds allocated to ETFs will form the basis for a new bull market and an increase in the value of the first cryptocurrency.

The company may actually have high liquidity in terms of financial performance, but are they going to be the real player here from this context to raise the market up for bullrun or even have it permanent influencing the market price, we can remember that this organizations aren't investing on bitcoin directly with their assets, under ETF its just another thing different, they cannot manipulate the market on their own advantage even though they have the financial capacity to do so.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Doctor on February 05, 2024, 08:00:53 PM
After the approval of Bitcoin ETF, the price of Bitcoin increased significantly, we saw a lot of news about this in the beginning of 2024. Moreover fake news has been seen a lot including that a twitter account was hacked anyway after seeing everything later bitcoin change after bitcoin ETF approval was published. But we can say for sure that the price of Bitcoin will go to a higher position this year, because it increases a lot after the approval of Bitcoin ETF. Moreover, since Bitcoin's halving is ahead, it threatens to reach higher levels soon. Since the approval of Bitcoin ETF, the number of investors will increase and the demand for Bitcoin will continue to increase and after the halving, the price of more Bitcoins will reach the highest level.

Yeah , after ETF approved, I think the number of investors will increase, and the price of bitcoin will increase significantly.
BTC spot ETF si market poison, I think it's true, poison that make people want to invest in crypto currency.
That's good.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: yohananaomi on February 05, 2024, 11:48:23 PM
Yeah , after ETF approved, I think the number of investors will increase, and the price of bitcoin will increase significantly.
BTC spot ETF si market poison, I think it's true, poison that make people want to invest in crypto currency.
That's good.
We hope that it will be like what you said, and of course it will have a good impact—maybe not now because it is too early to be able to produce that, but in the future.As long as the ETF provides a positive side, it will certainly make many investors continue to be interested in the crypto money market. Once again, it may take time, and we have to be patient for new things.​
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MrSpasybo on February 06, 2024, 01:44:02 AM
Grow some balls and a spine!
Reported

@TomPluz @sirty143 @alltalk
I always like this forum because of the relaxed climate here. That's why I'm not going to react. I don't know if you are able to handle this kind of people, until now I never saw one of them on this forum. Through teleporting many new users are entering, unfortunately teleporting doesn't filter. If user pakhitheboss had reacted with the same tone this guy treated him (https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=315187.30) the situation would have degenerated into classic forum bickering. Let him do it, others will start doing the same. Bickering everywhere. Many will refrain from posting. Active participation will decrease. People will leave. It’s up to you.
Well, please calm down Peter90, I believe that Stompix just wants to discuss freely, we should not guess other people's attitudes just from a few sentences on the forum.

AltcoinsTalks is a friendly forum, I don't want anything bad to happen to any member. I created this topic not to create discord, we all come to the market to find profit, not to find hostility.

No, I think Bitcoin Spot ETF isn't poison, It's a good thing which will make bitcoin price will increase. Why we think It's poison ?
I think ETF proposal is the result of researchbefore. So, Bitcoiners already think it will improve the bitcoin price when bullish
I hope you will re-read the content of my topic: I believe that the BTC Spot ETF will provide bullish momentum for BTC and ALTS in the medium term. But in long-term, looking at the decentralized and self-custodial nature of the assets that BTC is built on, the BTC Spot ETF could be poison to the crypto market.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Captain Corporate on February 06, 2024, 02:23:11 AM
The fact that a trillion+ dollar company would start to put in some money into bitcoin means a lot. I mean we are talking about a situation that would get us higher, and it should very well be something that will benefit everyone. I get that its not going to be all that confusing to start, but it is definitely a thing that we should care about. A company that size would not end up putting in a few million dollars, they are so rich that putting in a few billion dollars wouldn't really matter. I think its quite important that we end up with something that would give us the best benefit if we could, and they will increase the price a lot.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: EthereumDev_ on February 08, 2024, 09:17:36 AM
The fact that a trillion+ dollar company would start to put in some money into bitcoin means a lot. I mean we are talking about a situation that would get us higher, and it should very well be something that will benefit everyone. I get that its not going to be all that confusing to start, but it is definitely a thing that we should care about. A company that size would not end up putting in a few million dollars, they are so rich that putting in a few billion dollars wouldn't really matter. I think its quite important that we end up with something that would give us the best benefit if we could, and they will increase the price a lot.
It will not be easy for a company to put that amount of money into Bitcoin because if it is a company, then it will definitely think about the risks involved, and of course it has to be considered or get approval from a team that has carried out a proper analysis because, as far as I know, the company will carry out a deeper search before determining future steps, which means the company will consider it when making decisions.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Stompix on February 09, 2024, 10:22:25 PM
I hope you will re-read the content of my topic: I believe that the BTC Spot ETF will provide bullish momentum for BTC and ALTS in the medium term. But in long-term, looking at the decentralized and self-custodial nature of the assets that BTC is built on, the BTC Spot ETF could be poison to the crypto market.

If you meant short/medium term by month long, then al the signs point at you pretty much nailing it!
Now, when's time for the lethal poison injection, we stagnate below 100k till I retire? That's two decades!  ;)

Anyhow, I'm all ears on all forums to hear how the attitude about ETF has changed, it's such a swing it's beyond ridiculous funny!
First everyone as happy we had a jump before the 11th and everyone was choo choo mode, then it came the sell-off and I count hear my thought from scream of the manipulation, wall street is killing the coin, grayscale is sabotaging, etc etc.
Now another 1800, price is up, wallstreet money again good, ETF was a success!

It's so refreshing not having to day trade, no caring for 10-20% and being in for the long run so you can just grab your popcorn and watch this show relaxed from your massage chair, just poking now and there fun at the whole deal.

The fact that a trillion+ dollar company would start to put in some money into bitcoin means a lot. I mean we are talking about a situation that would get us higher, and it should very well be something that will benefit everyone. I get that its not going to be all that confusing to start, but it is definitely a thing that we should care about. A company that size would not end up putting in a few million dollars, they are so rich that putting in a few billion dollars wouldn't really matter.

Blackrock doesn't have trillions in their pockets, they have trillions in assets under management, their total equity is much , much smaller, something around 40 billions.Even their total asset si way smaller, somewhere around a hundred billions but this is also liabilities.

What is pushing now the price up is not Blackrock, but your ordinally people buying shares though them.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: KryptoBull on February 09, 2024, 11:29:43 PM
2. In the medium term (several years):
  • BTC Spot ETF allows more US investors to access BTC without knowledge of blockchain and crypto. Millions or tens of millions of American investors in crypto is a huge achievement that Spot ETF can reach in just a short time, which BTC has not been able to do in more than a decade.
  • BTC officially joins the traditional financial market in US, becoming an asset for people to diversify their investment portfolios.
  • Increase the legality of BTC globally, increasing the possibility of approval in many countries.
  • Most importantly: attracting large cash flows, creating momentum to help BTC prices and the entire crypto market have impressive growth in the 2024 cycle and many future cycles. I think profit is the reason many investors want to look for this market[1].

What is your view on the implications of BTC Spot ETF many years from now? Do you think ETFs are threatening the true value of BTC? Are you only interested in the profits that BTC Spot ETF will bring in the short term? Do you think Satoshi Nakamoto will support BTC Spot ETF?
I am a BTC holder, I don't care much about short-term fluctuations, whether up or down because I continue to DCA BTC until halving or even until 2025.

I only focus on the positive impact in the medium term: BTC price will be supported and continuously increase, helping the entire crypto market grow and bring profits to token holders. My goal is profit. When profits meet my investment criteria, I will take profits and wait for new opportunities.

So for me the BTC spot ETF is a blessing, not a market poison.

BTC and the crypto market exist in their own right, if it cannot resist the "poison", it should disappear and be seen as a failed economic experiment  8)
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: masudginanjar on February 10, 2024, 06:38:50 AM
Poison that can make everyone buy Bitcoin, that is the current function of poison when Bitcoin enters the Spot ETF market.
I also find this phenomenon very exciting because I am sure that Bitcoin is slowly continuing to rise in price.

The news is everywhere and Bitcoin prices continue to rise due to news indications about the Bitcoin ETF being received.
If I have just 1 Bitcoin then I will definitely get something very valuable for my retirement savings, Bitcoin is poison to make me rich. lol
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: DAMKAR on February 10, 2024, 07:13:35 AM
Poison that can make everyone buy Bitcoin, that is the current function of poison when Bitcoin enters the Spot ETF market.
I also find this phenomenon very exciting because I am sure that Bitcoin is slowly continuing to rise in price.

The news is everywhere and Bitcoin prices continue to rise due to news indications about the Bitcoin ETF being received.
If I have just 1 Bitcoin then I will definitely get something very valuable for my retirement savings, Bitcoin is poison to make me rich. lol

Poison which attracts everyone to buy bitcoin..It's true. Bitcoin price is increasing at this week and touch $ 47K.
By seeing this phenomena, I think bitcoin price will touch $ 50K easily. But be careful, hopefully there is no negative issues attack bitcoin at this season. Because many people wait for the bullish season
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: masudginanjar on February 11, 2024, 05:59:09 AM
Poison that can make everyone buy Bitcoin, that is the current function of poison when Bitcoin enters the Spot ETF market.
I also find this phenomenon very exciting because I am sure that Bitcoin is slowly continuing to rise in price.

The news is everywhere and Bitcoin prices continue to rise due to news indications about the Bitcoin ETF being received.
If I have just 1 Bitcoin then I will definitely get something very valuable for my retirement savings, Bitcoin is poison to make me rich. lol

Poison which attracts everyone to buy bitcoin..It's true. Bitcoin price is increasing at this week and touch $ 47K.
By seeing this phenomena, I think bitcoin price will touch $ 50K easily. But be careful, hopefully there is no negative issues attack bitcoin at this season. Because many people wait for the bullish season
According to the title that we have all seen and I gave that statement to my post.
And it's true that it's like poison, maybe Bitcoin is for some people something that is very volatile and scary to invest in.

But for me, who is quite familiar with the characteristics, trading and security of Bitcoin, it is a good poison for investing and I have to know where to go when I have to buy Bitcoin.
I mean, don't make the mistake of buying when Bitcoin goes up and selling when Bitcoin goes down, but at least I bought Bitcoin for the long term and held it in the Electrum wallet.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MrSpasybo on February 13, 2024, 05:37:03 PM
According to the title that we have all seen and I gave that statement to my post.
And it's true that it's like poison, maybe Bitcoin is for some people something that is very volatile and scary to invest in.

But for me, who is quite familiar with the characteristics, trading and security of Bitcoin, it is a good poison for investing and I have to know where to go when I have to buy Bitcoin.
I mean, don't make the mistake of buying when Bitcoin goes up and selling when Bitcoin goes down, but at least I bought Bitcoin for the long term and held it in the Electrum wallet.
I think I have presented my opinion quite thoroughly in the content of the topic, but perhaps I should clarify it more.

BTC Spot ETF has a positive impact because it helps promote the price increase of BTC, while also helping the crypto market gain new cash flow for growth in the medium term.

But in the long term, if investors only want to buy BTC Spot ETF because of its ease, they will not have the need to self-custody assets, not be interested in blockchain technology and the financial revolution that BTC is leading. If this becomes too popular, BTC will turn into a financial tool in the hands of Wall Street and not the decentralized financial solution that Satoshi created. I count this as poison for BTC.

I am a BTC holder, I don't care much about short-term fluctuations, whether up or down because I continue to DCA BTC until halving or even until 2025.

I only focus on the positive impact in the medium term: BTC price will be supported and continuously increase, helping the entire crypto market grow and bring profits to token holders. My goal is profit. When profits meet my investment criteria, I will take profits and wait for new opportunities.

So for me the BTC spot ETF is a blessing, not a market poison.

BTC and the crypto market exist in their own right, if it cannot resist the "poison", it should disappear and be seen as a failed economic experiment  8)
Yeah, I understand this, most current BTC investors just need profits and the BTC Spot ETF is a huge success attracting billions of dollars into BTC and the crypto market, helping BTC increase in price strongly from $25K by mid-2023 to $50K currently.

What I worry about is not the BTC price chart, but the decentralization and independence of BTC in the future.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Stompix on February 15, 2024, 03:07:29 PM
But in the long term, if investors only want to buy BTC Spot ETF because of its ease, they will not have the need to self-custody assets, not be interested in blockchain technology and the financial revolution that BTC is leading. If this becomes too popular, BTC will turn into a financial tool in the hands of Wall Street and not the decentralized financial solution that Satoshi created. I count this as poison for BTC.

Unfortunately that boat has sailed a long time ago and this comes from a bitcoin maxi!

The bright part in it is that those so called investors are people who wouldn't have chosen Bitcoin for the technicalities behind it anyhow, if they would have liked that they would have bought and kept their coins in self custody earlier, if they are only tested in the $ then it makes little difference in them holding ETFs or IOU paper promises from CEXs.
When I check adoption rates I'm always looking at another things, not the price, more like the number of new inputs and outputs in transactions, the distribution of coins, the volume outside money transfer from and in CEXs and those numbers are just a pale comparison to the price evolution, they are moving at snail pace comparing to the news spreading across the globe and the hype on social media.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: bounceback on February 15, 2024, 03:37:58 PM
I mean, don't make the mistake of buying when Bitcoin goes up and selling when Bitcoin goes down, but at least I bought Bitcoin for the long term and held it in the Electrum wallet.
Its mean sell your bitcoin during have good news and buy back later when bad news about bitcoin sharing, but have difference way for investors buy bitcoin right now. Most of them excited for investing when market trend stable but panic for holding or want to accumulate during market drop or crash.
I agree with your opinion how most important for investing in bitcoin when price dropping with many people panic to buy back and make difference thing with the other selling bitcoin have higher price or market positive trend.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: Peter90 on February 15, 2024, 04:58:05 PM
It is only if the US is no longer the world power that there will be DE dollarization. As long as the US is still in power, USD remains the primary reserve funds.

Hi SC,
I think you misunderstood what de-dollarization means

De-dollarization doesn't mean that the $ is worthless.
De-dollarization doesn't mean that nobody uses the $.
De-dollarization doesn't mean that the $ is not the most used currency.

"De-dollarization describes a process of moving away from the world’s reliance on the U.S. dollar (USD) as the chief reserve currency." (https://www.investopedia.com/what-is-de-dollarization-7559514)

De-dollarization describes a process, Sim Card
This process is already taking place, as you can see from this chart

(https://wolfstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Global-Reserve-Currencies-IMF-COFER-2023-01-01-USD-share-short.png)



I'm not a friend of Wikipedia, but under De-dollarization they offer a whole list of instances for de-dollarization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedollarisation)
These instances refer to events of the past, events which have already taken place.
De-dollarization, this process, is not a possible event of the future. It has already started, as you can read below.


Trading oil or other commodities

Argentina
Starting from early 2023, Argentina plans to join Brazil in paying for Chinese imports using the yuan instead of U.S. dollars. The country's goal is to safeguard its diminishing reserves of U.S. dollars. Argentina has been facing a significant decline in agricultural exports due to a severe drought, resulting in reduced inflow of dollars. In April 2023, Argentina intends to purchase approximately US$1 billion worth of Chinese imports using the yuan. Following that, the country aims to pay around $790 million worth of monthly imports in the Chinese yuan. After China and Argentina declared in April that their swap line had been opened, Argentina was able to utilise the equivalent of 1.04 billion yuan to pay for Chinese imports in May. The line was then increased to $18 billion over the following three years in June, during Massa's visit to China.

Brazil
In late March 2023, China and Brazil finalized an agreement to conduct trade using their respective currencies.

Bolivia
In April 2023, Bolivian President Luis Arce revealed that the government is actively considering the adoption of China's yuan as an alternative to the U.S. dollar for conducting international trade. The decision stems from Bolivia's ongoing challenge of insufficient liquidity in domestic markets, with shortages of U.S. dollars escalating since early 2023, due to the declining net international reserves.

China
Since 2011, China is gradually shifting from trade in US dollar and in favour of Chinese yuan, and in March 2018, China started buying oil in gold-backed yuan.
In March 2022, multiple reports claimed that Saudi Arabia was in talks with China about trading Saudi oil and gas to China in Chinese yuan instead of dollars.
In December 2022 at China - GCC Summit, President Xi Jinping called for Oil trade payments to be settled at yuan. Foreign Minister Wang Yi stated that Chinese-Arab relations experienced a "historic improvement."

Europe
Immediately at the start of the War in Ukraine, mostly Western countries imposed heavy sanctions on Russian commodities and banking sector. As a response, on 31 March 2022 Russian president Vladimir Putin signed a decree mandating unfriendly countries from April 1 to pay the natural gas imports in rubles. European leaders have initially rejected paying for deliveries in rubles, marking that such a move would undermine sanctions already imposed on Moscow. In April 2022, four European gas companies made trade payment settlements in rubles.

Ghana
On 24 November 2022, Vice President Mahamudu Bawumia stated that they are working to buy Oil in Gold and he added "The barter of gold for oil represents a major structural change."

India
India is exploring ways to strengthen its economy by reducing its reliance on the US dollar. The country believes that decreasing demand for the dollar in international trade can help stabilize its national currency, the rupee (₹). India's leaders have taken note of the trend of de-dollarization among other countries and are now seeking to increase trade using their own currency. To achieve this goal, India plans to convert the rupee (₹) into a foreign currency and increase its share of global trade.

Iran
As a result of US sanctions, Iran has tried hard to reduce its reliance on the dollar. The country has been seeking alternative ways or methods in order to conduct international trade utilizing diverse currencies such as the Euro. The Islamic Republic of Iran is also striving to apply blockchain technology and digital currencies in order to bypass the international financial system and likewise to reduce the effect of sanctions.

Malaysia
Due to the fluctuations in the dollar in recent years, there are countries like Malaysia that are seeking an appropriate alternative to the dollar in global trade transactions to strengthen their economy. On the other hand, according to Malaysia, the de-dollarization and lower demand of the country in order to apply the dollar in commercial transactions will be able to provide the ground for the stabilization of the ringgit (its local currency). The president of this country mentioned that with the economic power given to Asian countries among China/Japan, there isn’t any reason for Malaysia to remain dependent on the dollar, and on the other hand, the central banks of these two countries (i.e. China and Malaysia) have begun their discussions in regard to the implementation of trade in each other's currencies.[30]

Russia
In August 2022, Turkey and Russia agreed to use rubles in trade of the natural gas.
In September 2022, Gazprom CEO Alexey Miller said that they have signed an agreement to make trade payments in rubles and yuan instead of US dollars.
In November 2022, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Alexander Novak confirmed that all gas supplied to China via Siberia are settled in rubles and yuan.
On March 23, 2022, Putin signed an order forbidding "non-friendly" countries (including EU countries, United States and Japan) from buying Russian gas in any other currency besides the Russian ruble in the wake of sanctions given in aftermath of 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. As of 2022, Russia is the world's biggest gas exporter, making 17% of world gas export.

Saudi Arabia
In January 2023, Finance Minister of Saudi Arabia Mohammed Al-Jadaan stated that it is open to trade in other currencies besides the US dollar, and this expression is considered to be the first time in 48 years.

Turkey
The Turkish president has introduced a fresh strategy to decrease dependence on the US dollar in global commerce. The aim is to establish trade without the use of the dollar with Turkey's international trading associates. The president has indicated a willingness to engage in trade with China using local currencies, indicating a shift away from the dollar. Additionally, talks have been held about the possibility of replacing the US dollar with another national currency in transactions with Iran. This choice is motivated by both political and economic factors, as Turkey strives to support its domestic currency by distancing itself from the US dollar.[39]

Venezuela
In August 2018, Venezuela declared that it would price its oil in euros, yuan, rubles, and other currencies.



Bilateral trade agreements

India-Russia
Before 1991, Soviet Union and India traded in rupee-ruble exchange during Cold War. Mutual trading between India and Russia is done mostly in rubles and rupees instead of dollars and euros. In March 2022, India and Russia entered for a Rupee–Ruble Trade Arrangement.

Australia/Russia/Japan/Brazil/Iran
It made agreements with Australia, Russia, Japan, Brazil, and Iran to trade in national currencies. It has been reported that in the first quarter of 2020 the share of the dollar in the bilateral trade between China and Russia fell below 50 percent for the first time. In 2011, Japan made an agreement with China to trade in national currencies. Sino-Japanese trade had a value of US$300 billion.

Brazil-China
In March 2013, during the BRICS summit, Brazil made an agreement with China to trade in Brazilian real and Chinese yuan.

Australia-China
In 2013, Australia made an agreement with China to trade in national currencies.

INSTEX
In 2015, China launched CIPS, a payment system which offers clearing and settlement services for its participants in cross-border Renminbi payments and trade as an alternative to SWIFT. Since the end of 2019, the EU countries established INSTEX, a European special-purpose vehicle (SPV) to facilitate non-USD and non-SWIFT transactions with Iran to avoid breaking U.S. sanctions. On 11 February 2019, Russian deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov stated that Russia would be interested in participating in INSTEX.

Iran-EU
In March 2020, the first Iran-EU INSTEX transaction was concluded. It covered an import of medical equipment to combat the COVID-19 outbreak in Iran. European countries said in March 2023 they had decided to end a scheme put in place in 2019 to allow trade with Iran and protect companies doing business with it from US sanctions, but it was only a single one transaction traded.

Russia-Iran
In July 2022, Russia and Iran made modifications in their Bilateral trade to reduce the dependency of US dollar. The new monetary system could mean the debts can be settled in their own countries and could reduce the demand for US dollars by 3 billion a year. In January 2023, Russia and Iran were planning to trade with gold backed cryptocurrencies as an alternative to US dollar.

Southeast Asian
A group of Southeast Asian countries in the region, such as Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Cambodia, and Thailand, are currently contemplating the process of de-dollarization in order to diminish their dependence on the US dollar within their economies. These nations have voiced apprehensions regarding the volatility of the dollar's value and the American government's utilization of the dollar embargo mechanism. Consequently, they have developed a keen interest in mitigating their vulnerability to the dollar and exploring alternative currencies.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: therozaq on February 16, 2024, 04:49:19 AM

Its mean sell your bitcoin during have good news and buy back later when bad news about bitcoin sharing, but have difference way for investors buy bitcoin right now. Most of them excited for investing when market trend stable but panic for holding or want to accumulate during market drop or crash.


Actually, the essence of everything is to keep calm and hold for long term investment, if we want to invest in bitcoin.  Because bitcoin is volatile and there is always negative news.  Don't panic sell.  Bitcoin will strengthen again, that's what usually happens.
Title: Re: BTC Spot ETF is market poison?
Post by: MrSpasybo on February 28, 2024, 07:28:04 PM
Unfortunately that boat has sailed a long time ago and this comes from a bitcoin maxi!

The bright part in it is that those so called investors are people who wouldn't have chosen Bitcoin for the technicalities behind it anyhow, if they would have liked that they would have bought and kept their coins in self custody earlier, if they are only tested in the $ then it makes little difference in them holding ETFs or IOU paper promises from CEXs.
When I check adoption rates I'm always looking at another things, not the price, more like the number of new inputs and outputs in transactions, the distribution of coins, the volume outside money transfer from and in CEXs and those numbers are just a pale comparison to the price evolution, they are moving at snail pace comparing to the news spreading across the globe and the hype on social media.
I cannot predict their investment trends in the future, but if possible, I would like them to become users of the Bitcoin network and other modern blockchains instead of becoming BTC Spot ETF holders. Some of my friends in the US have also changed direction, not wanting to buy BTC but buying BTC Spot ETF because it is easier to declare taxes. This is what I see and I'm a little worried.

I also hope that thanks to BTC Spot ETF, BTC will be promoted and have more users, the decentralized value of BTC will be emphasized and not overshadowed by BTC-based products on stock exchanges.