BTC Spot ETF is market poison?

[examplens]

Losing the historical mission of Bitcoin: In 2008, Satoshi Nakamoto introduced Bitcoin as a method for people to have the right to self-custody of money, not dependent on third parties, escaping the traditional financial model that has a lot of problems.

I will agree with you here, not your keys, not your coins and if you buy BTC spot etf’s you don’t control your coins and that is a bad decision. But we cannot stop people from doing what they want, people even store their funds in centralized exchanges which is even worse in my honest opinion.

I accepted this as just another stress test for Bitcoin, perhaps the most difficult one yet.

In the meantime, probably the best meme for this ETF mess

[MVL~$]

I remember back in 2017 or 2018 when almost everyone is talking about institutional money flowing into crypto but now that it's actually happening, we're having reservations. To be fair, the concerns are valid but this is what most traders want. I was also thinking that it will change the cycle that we know of but what else can we do? We can only sit back.

Now that Bitcoin ETF is already here, I'm hoping that none of these wealthy groups would collude and control the major miners.

Bitcoin faced this situation in 2018. I completely agree with you. I really don't understand what the current state of Bitcoin is due to ETFs or what it will be like in the future. But hopefully they will take action about it.

[Peter90]

This whole ETF thing is not a good thing for the BTC itself, as it diverge people from using the BTC technology like Blockchain, wallets, exchange, dexs, etc. people using BTC ETF will not be aware of Blockchain technology and its benefits, and revolutions it can make.
But I guess we don't need there time in BTC blockchain, we are getting what we need. And that is funds into BTC which is good for BTC dominance and for all investors.

It's two different points of view

From the investor's point of view everything that pushes the BTC price up - like a BTC ETF - is good.

From the "political" point of view - how BTC can improve the "money system" - BTC price is not that important.
From this point of view, keyword is adoption: adoption as money, not as investment.


So will the introduction of BTC ETFs help adoption of BTC as money?
On one side yes, because the perception of BTC as a respected product will improve.
On the other side no, because focus will be on BTC as an investment, not as money.
Imo

[Stompix]

You just have to love the change of views people have had in the last week on ETF, goes though all stages of human feelings

First we had:
Gary Gensler is a bitcoin hater, he is paid by bankers that's why he rejects bitcoin ETFs!

Now we're at next stage:
Bitcoin ETF are bad for Bitcoine, allowing them it's a plot by the bankers to destroy Bitcoin!

When there will be a price increase:
Money is flowing into ETF, muahaha the bankers can't do a thing, Bitcoin stonk!

I'm not talking about the impact of Gold Spot ETF and BTC Spot ETF on asset price fluctuations or the national economy, I want to mention the negative impacts that BTC Spot ETF can cause to BTC's original mission and our financial freedom as the big guys pool BTC for their ETFs.

And I was just drawing a parallel showing that the generation that dealt with paper gold was better off in terms of inflation that the one with actual gold!

Also, problem with the poison theory, the big guys "pooling" their BTC together wouldn't have had those BTC in the first place if they wouldn't have bought them, which brings us to a shitload of theoretically dismissed problems in the past:
- the weak hand are still here and are still selling a ton of coins for short profit, so most of adoption was investment for $ gains
- big guys can indeed buy a ton of coins without having to pay 1 million per coin as claimed before
- while buying they have increased the price a bit so, they allowed others to take profit on, which was good for the ones dumping (weak hands), right?
- people throwing billions at these means that more are interested in the $ value than BTC technicalities behind the coins, right?

So if you have people that owned coins and dumped them for fiat gains and people buying IU promised instead of hard coins, hmmm, isn't that how a free world where everyone is free to decide what to do with his money works? 

You can't have freedom and imposing at the same time something to be used as by your personal wishes when somebody wants something else!
Remember it goes two ways:
Not your keys not your coins!
My keys, my coins my decision, not anyone else's business!

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

We can call Bitcoin ETF as any name we want to, if it's indeed a market poison then we shouldn't allow it to sting on us, so many investors had expected to see the market go high instead of being dip because they only think in one way and if you're going to be a successful investor, you must always have an alternative plan for other option, I know many were disappointed already from the way they see it happened after the approval for the market to go dip instead of bull.

[Peter90]

I don't think in the future a time will come when people will start to use gold (physical) again instead of these Gold ETFs for convenience. Because it is a modern era and now we are into digitalization

The future is now  and it's called gold-backed stablecoins: physical gold stored in a vault, digital record of the ownership of that gold running on the blockchain, for convenience 

[therozaq]

We can call Bitcoin ETF as any name we want to, if it's indeed a market poison then we shouldn't allow it to sting on us, so many investors had expected to see the market go high instead of being dip because they only think in one way and if you're going to be a successful investor, you must always have an alternative plan for other option, I know many were disappointed already from the way they see it happened after the approval for the market to go dip instead of bull.

Yeah,  I saw many people who were disappointed after WTF was approved.  Previously, everyone thought that after the ETF was approved, the market would soar, but in fact it dropped. 

If you say this is poison, of course don't drink it. 
We have to be smart about responding to it.  We should take advantage of the drop moment by buying coins and hold ...
I think It's  a good way to do..

[Uruhara]

Maybe BTC will remain Decentralized if it is held in our own hands in a wallet whose keys only we know. But if people become more familiar with Bitcoin ETFs then awareness of the purpose of BTC itself will fade. But hopefully young people in the future will maintain awareness of the importance of decentralization. But on the one hand, the Bitcoin ETF has also made a big contribution to making BTC better known to many people. And it could even be a catalyst for wider adoption. But when we small investors let our BTC be bought by big investors then this will only make the biggest holders have greater control. I personally might think about the long term benefits. But I also hope that the purpose of BTC itself remains intact. But honestly, maybe I'm more concerned about the price increase that will occur.

[Charles-Tim]

The future is now  and it's called gold-backed stablecoins: physical gold stored in a vault, digital record of the ownership of that gold running on the blockchain, for convenience 

How are you very sure that the gold are stored somewhere? Also if A is backed by something, that does not mean A is that thing. Gold-backed stable coins are not gold. That means their price can depeg. The second thing is that you can check the price of gold in 2011 and 2019 and now and see that it is better to hold bitcoin instead. Bitcoin marketcap is still low and the price will increase better and should be the digital asset of choice.

[NikeFit_7777]

I want to share some very interesting charts and a few about them.

— Trading volume is down, one week after the spot ETF was accepted.
— Miners continue to dump bitcoin at the market price (which is fine with them, as we can see).

1. Or they know something in advance. And we are in for a correction.
2. Or they are stockpiling funds to buy equipment before the halving.

P.S. Nobody really knows the truth. As always only guesswork. 

[Papusha20]

Losing the historical mission of Bitcoin: In 2008, Satoshi Nakamoto introduced Bitcoin as a method for people to have the right to self-custody of money, not dependent on third parties, escaping the traditional financial model that has a lot of problems.

I will agree with you here, not your keys, not your coins and if you buy BTC spot etf’s you don’t control your coins and that is a bad decision. But we cannot stop people from doing what they want, people even store their funds in centralized exchanges which is even worse in my honest opinion.

I accepted this as just another stress test for Bitcoin, perhaps the most difficult one yet.

In the meantime, probably the best meme for this ETF mess

The price of Bitcoin is only moving lower since the Bitcoin ETF is approved, because the Bitcoin ETF will be approved. Investors began to buy bitcoins in large numbers on this hope and the price of bitcoins mostly increased. But soon after the approval of the Bitcoin ETF, the price of Bitcoin fell to 38k, which could be a nuisance for investors. After the approval of Bitcoin ETF, the price of the coin did not rise, but rather the price of Bitcoin went down.

[Stompix]

I want to share some very interesting charts and a few about them.

— Miners continue to dump bitcoin at the market price (which is fine with them, as we can see).

1. Or they know something in advance. And we are in for a correction.
2. Or they are stockpiling funds to buy equipment before the halving.

Miner here and I'm really curious about this, like 10000001% genuine curious why would that be the case!
First thing first, miners have expenses, they need to sell their earned coins to pay for bills, you can't run otherwise unless you're some hobbies miners, but when you have a 200MW farm there is no way you can come with that monthly amount from your piggy bank!

Second, why would they sell bitcoin now when the reward is going to halve? The only reason why you would do that is if you would know the price is going to make for that and much more, so you're looking at a halving an a 300% in price, at which point , why the f word are you going to sell Bitcoins if you know you can make 300% by just holding?

I'm serious, ELI5 this to me as I see nothing logical in this actions if this would be true!

[elbans89]

up  to you, if you call ETF is market poison.
I think ETF is good for crypto currency market.
But be careful,  I still learn why after ETF approved, bitcoin price went down.
although crypto is volatile, but many investors have predicted, bitcoin will rise after ETF approved.
But this prediction wrong.
We all know, demand is the basic factor of the price.
But Bitcoin should go up after ETF approved.
It seems manipulation.

[Peter90]

The future is now  and it's called gold-backed stablecoins: physical gold stored in a vault, digital record of the ownership of that gold running on the blockchain, for convenience 

How are you very sure that the gold are stored somewhere? Also if A is backed by something, that does not mean A is that thing. Gold-backed stable coins are not gold. That means their price can depeg.

Hi CT,
this thread is about BTC, so let's not hijack it 
So very shortly:

"How are you very sure that the gold are stored somewhere?"
By letting the metals be audited by an independent, internationally renown company specialised in auditing precious metals.
I have addressed the audit subject in this thread Tether Gold (XAUt)
This is an example of how such an audit looks like
For professional and institutional investors such an audit is good enough, it's good enough for me too.


"if A is backed by something, that does not mean A is that thing. Gold-backed stable coins are not gold. That means their price can depeg."
No it can't.
As long as each coin is backed by a piece of gold, the price of that coin can't depeg.

Those coins are the title of ownership of the gold.
For example - I'm talking about kinesis - 1 KAU represents the title of ownership of 1 gram of gold.
The price of that title of ownership is the same as the price of 1 gram of gold.

The price of that piece of paper representing the title of ownership of your car is the same as the price of your car.
The price of that document representing the title of ownership of that apartment is the same as the price of that apartment.
As long as there is no fraud, there can't be no depeg.

Compare the price of KAU with the price of 1 gram of gold

[TomPluz]

Looking back at Gold Spot ETF in 2004, following its launch, gold prices increased significantly through 2011, but stagnated over the next decade. Young people in US are now very unfamiliar with buying gold for their own storage, they choose to invest in gold ETFs for convenience, and they complain about inflation and devaluation of $. This truth is completely different from the situation in Vietnam: Vietnamese investors do not have the concept of Gold Spot ETF, we buy and sell gold by grams/pieces/jewelry at precious metal stores ourselves, we self-store and lend gold to each other when necessary.

There are many positive and negative views on ETF most especially what will be its impact on the asset which is in this case is Bitcoin. While I am really looking forward and highly expecting that once an ETF is approved by SEC, there will be a push for BTC to immediately get into a new ATH...but sadly my expectation never materialized as right now we are experiencing a big correction. So I am wondering...what is happening? Is there a correlation between ETF and the dip right now? In the past, I read articles cautioning people on ETF and they based their analysis to that of gold which we know failed to accelerate its growth in the past many years. Will the fate of gold be the same thing for Bitcoin now that we have the ETF operating in the market? Seems to me that I got more questions than answers...in the end all we can do is wait for what will be. I now remember a remark made by Gary Gensler - a man I do not like heading SEC - and essentially he said that ETF is actually centralization...away from the main concept of Bitcoin which is decentralization. And that is something we should remember and maybe revisit years from now.