Altcoins Talks - Cryptocurrency Forum
Crypto Discussion Forum => Forum related => Suggestion Box => Topic started by: Lucius on September 08, 2024, 04:51:36 PM
-
Considering that we had, and I am sure that in the future, we will have a lot of discussions about the karma system (especially negative karma), an idea came to my mind that could somehow bring a touch of clarification in this regard.
My idea would be to provide an option for giving negative karma so that each user can write the reason for giving it. In this way, each user could receive a message with an explanation and accordingly to that correct the mistakes due to which he received negative karma - and at the same time everything would still remain anonymous.
I don't know how easy or difficult something like that would be technically feasible, but I think the members would appreciate it.
-
I seem to remember that a user put a very similar idea on the table a while ago. Although it seems like a good idea to me, I don't know how effective it could be, since in some way we would be "forcing" an explanation, an explanation, if necessary, seems correct to me, but I'm sure that would also cause complaints from some users. As for the difficulty on the technical side, I don't know if it would be possible to do it, since any modification always entails bugs, crashes, problems with the forum... But that is something that the administrator should clarify.
I seem to remember that the previous proposal did not have much progress. Anyway, if I find the post I'll put it here.
-
My idea would be to provide an option for giving negative karma so that each user can write the reason for giving it. In this way, each user could receive a message with an explanation and accordingly to that correct the mistakes due to which he received negative karma - and at the same time everything would still remain anonymous.
Pre made texts as select option with all possible kind of reasons for -karma would be much better because imagine if anyone can write anything like any offensive and vulgar language including local languages, that will be a discouragement for the one receiving the message.
-
Makes sense to me and could be useful, providing the user giving the negative karma remains anonymous etc. If the reason is optional to give then it wouldn't be forcing any users to provide a reason and in reality if users can't justify why they are giving negative karma than they shouldn't be smiting the first place. Ideally it'd help users to avoid making mistakes and give them an opportunity to learn from receiving negative karma, as at present it's not possible to know why you received it, even if sometimes uses can guess why they have based on recent posts etc. My only concern would be based on the difficulty to implement such an update, that if it's not a built in option to the forum software, it would likely be very difficult to implement.
-
Karma doesn't reflect on the trader system afaik it will not affect trust. I think it would be no use to do that as it only create awry feeling for anyone to engage a user with negative karma. And in the end users judge each due to the comments (explaination).
Theymos did this to his forum, it only gave the DT the rights to ruin each others reputation. Trader system is where the trust is to be built.
-
Theymos did this to his forum, it only gave the DT the rights to ruin each others reputation. Trader system is where the trust is to be built.
I think you may have misunderstood the proposal here. The suggestion wasn't to have negative karma messages somehow logged on users profiles for all to see, as a form of trust/karma feedback, but instead to provide private messages to the user.
-
My idea would be to provide an option for giving negative karma so that each user can write the reason for giving it. In this way, each user could receive a message with an explanation and accordingly to that correct the mistakes due to which he received negative karma - and at the same time everything would still remain anonymous.
So if I get this right the user would receive a message with an explanation written by the one giving negative karma but he won't know the user, he will only get an anonymous feedback entry, right? I do see a few advantages in this, more in stopping abuse since they would need to write something down that makes sense rather than hammering down with iminuses every reply but I'm a bit skeptical on the implementation.
Pre made texts as select option with all possible kind of reasons for -karma would be much better because imagine if anyone can write anything like any offensive and vulgar language including local languages, that will be a discouragement for the one receiving the message.
Why would you do this when it could easily get reported?
-
Pre made texts as select option with all possible kind of reasons for -karma would be much better because imagine if anyone can write anything like any offensive and vulgar language including local languages, that will be a discouragement for the one receiving the message.
Why would you do this when it could easily get reported?
Assuming the messages would appear in the (hidden) karma log, I don't think this would be a an issue either, as would be a very dumb thing to do.
Including the 5 (valid) reasons (https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=657.0) why users receive negative karma as options could be useful though.
-
I don't know how effective it could be, since in some way we would be "forcing" an explanation, an explanation, if necessary, seems correct to me, but I'm sure that would also cause complaints from some users.
that would also definitely result to heated discussions and arguments because one party will consider the negative karma unfair while the other will think it is just and right this can make people more wary of giving out negative karmas whether that’s good or not is up for interpretation
As for the difficulty on the technical side, I don't know if it would be possible to do it, since any modification always entails bugs, crashes, problems with the forum... But that is something that the administrator should clarify.
any new modifications will surely encounter challenges at first but i am sure as time will pass by it will improve and sooner or later it will run smoothly just like the rest of the forum
-
I seem to remember that a user put a very similar idea on the table a while ago.
---
I seem to remember that the previous proposal did not have much progress. Anyway, if I find the post I'll put it here.
I assume that it could be before account teleportation with BTT was enabled, because I can't remember anyone suggesting something similar since I've been on the forum.
Although it seems like a good idea to me, I don't know how effective it could be, since in some way we would be "forcing" an explanation, an explanation, if necessary, seems correct to me, but I'm sure that would also cause complaints from some users.
~snip~
It would be effective in the sense that there should be no more complaints from members who would ask "why did I get negative karma" considering that they would get an explanation for such an act. I don't see why anyone would mind having to justify their decision, except those who abuse karma and would consider it a waste of time.
+1
Pre made texts as select option with all possible kind of reasons for -karma would be much better because imagine if anyone can write anything like any offensive and vulgar language including local languages, that will be a discouragement for the one receiving the message.
It makes sense, and if we take into account that there are clear rules when negative karma can be given to someone, then the predefined reasons could be a kind of guide to how to use karma for some members.
+1
~snip~
My only concern would be based on the difficulty to implement such an update, that if it's not a built in option to the forum software, it would likely be very difficult to implement.
Perhaps the "report to moderator" function could help with this, considering that it works on a somewhat similar principle - the user selects that option in a certain post, and in a new window he has to write the reason for reporting that same post. Perhaps negative karma could follow the same principle, and an additional benefit would be that no one could mistakenly give negative karma, as is the case now, because the procedure does not require any confirmation.
+1
So if I get this right the user would receive a message with an explanation written by the one giving negative karma but he won't know the user, he will only get an anonymous feedback entry, right? I do see a few advantages in this, more in stopping abuse since they would need to write something down that makes sense rather than hammering down with iminuses every reply but I'm a bit skeptical on the implementation.
~snip~
That's right, only my focus would not be on the abuse, but on the one who received negative karma getting information about why it happened. If someone would accept such information in a positive way, then he could correct his mistakes and reduce the possibility of receiving the same "punishment" for the same thing in the future.
+1
-
Imagine recieving a -1 and a message accompanied it and you opened the message and it reads thus; "You are a modafuka, that's why I gave you -1".
Then the person that received the -1 and notification will likely create a topic about it and the drama continues. The admin will likely want to check the karma log to see who wrote that. In the end, you gave an option for explanation, and anyone might decide to be an idiot and explain rubbish.
It's a nice idea, maybe it needs some modification. Making it optional could also be as good as not implementing it.
-
Imagine recieving a -1 and a message accompanied it and you opened the message and it reads thus; "You are a modafuka, that's why I gave you -1".
Then the person that received the -1 and notification will likely create a topic about it and the drama continues. The admin will likely want to check the karma log to see who wrote that. In the end, you gave an option for explanation, and anyone might decide to be an idiot and explain rubbish.
It's a nice idea, maybe it needs some modification. Making it optional could also be as good as not implementing it.
If giving an explanation about Negative Karma was optional, I don't think anyone would use it when the reason wasn't normal or obvious, and I also don't think it would be used simply to insult because, as you say, the administrator would take action, and the user would be penalized in some way.
The problem with this would be to implement it in the forum and it would not cause any type of error, so many tests would be necessary and that would cause errors in the forum, crashes and problems for the administrator and the users.
-
Xxx
If giving an explanation about Negative Karma was optional, I don't think anyone would use it when the reason wasn't normal or obvious, and I also don't think it would be used simply to insult because, as you say, the administrator would take action, and the user would be penalized in some way.
Yea, majority will not use the explanation box if it is made optional. Making it mandatory would make may people lose interest in giving - karma and that might lead to increased spam. If I give a -karma, having to explain my reasons for that means I honestly want the victim to change, which is a nice gesture.
The problem with this would be to implement it in the forum and it would not cause any type of error, so many tests would be necessary and that would cause errors in the forum, crashes and problems for the administrator and the users.
If trying to implement it will return so much errors, maybe the risk might not worth it. Which is why the admin has decided to be adamant to the karma suggestions all over the forum.
-
Considering that we had, and I am sure that in the future, we will have a lot of discussions about the karma system (especially negative karma), an idea came to my mind that could somehow bring a touch of clarification in this regard.
My idea would be to provide an option for giving negative karma so that each user can write the reason for giving it. In this way, each user could receive a message with an explanation and accordingly to that correct the mistakes due to which he received negative karma - and at the same time everything would still remain anonymous.
I don't know how easy or difficult something like that would be technically feasible, but I think the members would appreciate it.
This could be something like an option to send a private message to the user who receives it.
It would be cool if that could be anonymous as well
-
This could be something like an option to send a private message to the user who receives it.
It would be cool if that could be anonymous as well
But the only problem with this whole set up is, a person could give you negative karma for no reason at all!
As an example, just for demonstration purposes: I just game you -karma on this post (don't mind me [I've undone it a few minutes later]). But I don't actually have any reason for doing so. So what would I write inside the private message that is sent to you?
Most people who do this will either write spam, or some insults. So I don't like this user-generated PMs thing.
-
This could be something like an option to send a private message to the user who receives it.
It would be cool if that could be anonymous as well
As an example, just for demonstration purposes: I just game you -karma on this post (don't mind me [I've undone it a few minutes later]). But I don't actually have any reason for doing so. So what would I write inside the private message that is sent to you?
If you have no reason to give a -karma, it means the -karma is not legitimate and should not be given. Just like you said above, you gave -1 and undo it because you know the post doesn't worth -karma.
Most people who do this will either write spam, or some insults. So I don't like this user-generated PMs thing.
I expressed this concern and Freemind gave an answer, just scroll a little upwards and see if his answer is suitable for you
-
As an example, just for demonstration purposes: I just game you -karma on this post (don't mind me [I've undone it a few minutes later]). But I don't actually have any reason for doing so. So what would I write inside the private message that is sent to you?
This pm could be optional , not mandatory.
Anyway, I think positive feedback is better than negative.
This is why I think posta with +karma showing up would be amazing.
-
This pm could be optional , not mandatory.
Anyway, I think positive feedback is better than negative.
This is why I think posta with +karma showing up would be amazing.
Of course that would be an option, like the option to write something when you use "report to moderator". What would be positive is that each member could give their own explanation along with the negative karma, which could then help those who see that they have received negative karma to know for what reason they received it.
I sincerely doubt that some members realize that they are doing something wrong, regardless of receiving negative karma, strikes, badges...
-
I sincerely doubt that some members realize that they are doing something wrong, regardless of receiving negative karma, strikes, badges...
Yeah, I am impressed by number of spam and low quality posts accounts...
When I first joined BTT i just tried to do everything correct to rank up. It was relatively easy considering the benefits of doing so. The same here...
I can't understand how people just fail to do basic stuff like engaging discussions and sharing knowledge or being polite...
-
I sincerely doubt that some members realize that they are doing something wrong, regardless of receiving negative karma, strikes, badges...
I wouldn't compare -karma to receiving strikes or badges, as the latter is only done while receiving a warning via pm with a template message with various topic links that documents exactly what the user has done wrong (plagiarising, shilling, spamming, ai posting, etc). So whether the user decides to change their behaviour or not becomes a choice at that point, as it is very clear why they receive such a punishment. Naturally 50% don't and end up in misbehaving, under review or with 3 strikes and future posts aren't seen anymore...
But given approximately half do change their behaviour, this is why I think -karma with an explanation could well help. At least it wouldn't do much harm.
-
Yeah, I am impressed by number of spam and low quality posts accounts...
~snip~
It is especially difficult for me to understand that there are many high-ranking members who have been there for a long time and have several hundred + karma, and at the same time they write hardly meaningful posts that I don't know if I would put them in the category of spam or shitposting. I would be happy to give them negative karma, but I think that without explaining why they got it, it makes no sense.
~snip~
But given approximately half do change their behaviour, this is why I think -karma with an explanation could well help. At least it wouldn't do much harm.
I believe that there would be no harm in any sense, especially if the messages that could be sent were generated in advance to prevent any ugly messages - although I doubt that there would be too many such messages. I don't know if we should expect any concrete results from this proposal of mine, but if an idea exists, there is always at least a small chance that it will be realized one day.
-
Yeah, I am impressed by number of spam and low quality posts accounts...
~snip~
It is especially difficult for me to understand that there are many high-ranking members who have been there for a long time and have several hundred + karma, and at the same time they write hardly meaningful posts that I don't know if I would put them in the category of spam or shitposting. I would be happy to give them negative karma, but I think that without explaining why they got it, it makes no sense.
I used to see that a lot in bitcointalk too when I joined in.
I was a newbie or a member with very few earned merits (like 30) and there were tons of spammers with legendary accounts with 1000 merits making money just to shitpost.
I believe this forum used to rank up useless accounts, just like bitcointalk before the merit system.
-
I used to see that a lot in bitcointalk too when I joined in.
I was a newbie or a member with very few earned merits (like 30) and there were tons of spammers with legendary accounts with 1000 merits making money just to shitpost.
They didn't earn the merits, they got them based on their rank and most of them have not collected more than 100 merits since 2018 and would never reach a single higher rank in the new system. There have been some suggestions that those who do not prove that they are worthy of the rank should be stripped of it (demotion), but that is still a bit of a tricky question and I don't think it will ever happen under the current leadership.
I believe this forum used to rank up useless accounts, just like bitcointalk before the merit system.
If you need nothing but activity to reach a higher rank, then you will undoubtedly have the opportunity to achieve it. In that regard, nothing has changed, because karma is not a factor that determines rank in any way. Ranking on BTT is much harder than here, there's no doubt about that.
-
I believe this forum used to rank up useless accounts, just like bitcointalk before the merit system.
If you need nothing but activity to reach a higher rank, then you will undoubtedly have the opportunity to achieve it. In that regard, nothing has changed, because karma is not a factor that determines rank in any way. Ranking on BTT is much harder than here, there's no doubt about that.
Last I checked you still need non-negative karma in order to reach Hero rank, but granted you don't need positive karma to reach higher ranks per say, only a lack of shitposting or spamming etc. I'd be in favour of having a light increase in karma requirement in order to reach certain ranks though, something like:
Senior +1
Hero: +5
Legendary: +10
Nothing too extreme, but at least if you posted 1,200 times as a "native" member then realistically you should have at least 10 posts that received positive karma for example. I'm not sure how easily this could be implemented without affecting teleported members, or whether this restriction should include them. Ie your activity is teleported but there are still karma requirements needed. This would probably be too contentious though as it would mean another drop in ranks for certain members...
-
Senior +1
Hero: +5
Legendary: +10
Nothing too extreme, but at least if you posted 1,200 times as a "native" member then realistically you should have at least 10 posts that received positive karma for example.
I wold use the btt limites
Senior: 250
Hero:500
Legendary: 1000
Karma is not that hard. I am here for less than a year ans I have nearly 300
-
Senior +1
Hero: +5
Legendary: +10
Nothing too extreme, but at least if you posted 1,200 times as a "native" member then realistically you should have at least 10 posts that received positive karma for example.
I wold use the btt limites
Senior: 250
Hero:500
Legendary: 1000
Karma is not that hard. I am here for less than a year ans I have nearly 300
This would mean you are a senior member, not a legendary member then? This would otherwise leave only 5 users with legendary rank, assuming mythical, padawan and jedi would have even high karma requirements. As a reminder this forum isn't btt, nor that similar, so these karma requirements would not be appropriate for here. This is why I suggested a very light karma requirement, as opposed to anything remotely similar to btt.
-
This would mean you are a senior member, not a legendary member then? This would otherwise leave only 5 users with legendary rank, assuming mythical, padawan and jedi would have even high karma requirements. As a reminder this forum isn't btt, nor that similar, so these karma requirements would not be appropriate for here. This is why I suggested a very light karma requirement, as opposed to anything remotely similar to btt.
As people were teleported, ranks were also teleported.
I am talking about new users . 5 karma is basically nothing, I think making harder to rank up is challenging and could even stimulate people to contribute
-
As people were teleported, ranks were also teleported.
I am talking about new users . 5 karma is basically nothing, I think making harder to rank up is challenging and could even stimulate people to contribute
I agree that 5 karma is easily attainable even for the biggest spammers, but for lower ranks we should not exaggerate the requirements because this is not the case even on BTT where you need 1 merit to become a Jr.Member or 10 merits for Member rank. I think some minimal karma should play a role here as well when it comes to low ranks, and for the higher ones I would still set the values to 50 for Hero and 100 for Legendary which would definitely prevent the worst members from reaching them without much trouble.
+1/+1
-
This would mean you are a senior member, not a legendary member then? This would otherwise leave only 5 users with legendary rank, assuming mythical, padawan and jedi would have even high karma requirements. As a reminder this forum isn't btt, nor that similar, so these karma requirements would not be appropriate for here. This is why I suggested a very light karma requirement, as opposed to anything remotely similar to btt.
As people were teleported, ranks were also teleported.
Technically not, activity was teleported (capped at 1,200), not ranks. Those with 5,000+ activity on bitcointalk were not given Mythical rank here. Nor was merit translated into karma. The complexity would be imposing such a karma limit but excluding Teleported members (as it seems you're suggesting). Some of which don't have the required merit on bitcointalk anyway, so wouldn't deserve exclusion,.
I am talking about new users . 5 karma is basically nothing, I think making harder to rank up is challenging and could even stimulate people to contribute
Tbf it sounds like your're not talking about new users specifically, but otherwise non-teleported? Otherwise given the lack of karma distributed on the forum compared to merit (the ratio is probably 10:1 per member roughly), then something slightly higher than I proposed might make sense, or a tenth of what you proposed (as Lucius proposed) for example:
Senior: 25
Hero:50
Legendary: 100
But then admin isn't going to check every teleported member to see if they got the merit on bitcointalk to be eligible for such ranks, so would have to include everyone here.
-
That will cause another commotion in the forum between the two parties involved. So I also prefer the present system of karma giving. But if the -Karma giver user name will not appear at the recipient end then I support your suggestion. So that the receiver of the -Karma would know that that was the reason but some will still abuse the system by giving -Karma unnecessarily with their unethical reasons. So all the same let it be like this.
-
@Agbe, I think it was clearly stated that such a feature would be anonymous in the sense that the negative karma would still remain anonymous, but there would be an option to explain to the one who received it why he received it. If someone does something bad and you punish him without him even understanding why he is being punished, it is very likely that he will do the same thing again.
Punishments make sense if the one who is punished has the opportunity to try to correct what he is doing wrong.