Altcoins Talks - Cryptocurrency Forum
Cryptocurrency Ecosystem => Bitcoin Forum => Bitcoin News & Updates => Topic started by: God Of Thunder on January 05, 2025, 08:07:52 AM
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Bitcoin is fiat. Now go ahead, take the time you need to get it out of your system. Breath deeply. Blood pressure still up? Okay, let’s try this then.
What does fiat mean? An arbitrary order or decree. Fiat currencies are given value by the authority of governments. They have value because the State decides they have value, and will accept them in payment of taxes. So how is Bitcoin fiat?
A king waives his hand and gives fiat value. But there is no King of Bitcoin. Right? Wrong. It’s us.
We collectively give value to Bitcoin through our decision to use it. We bring it into existence through our collective arbitrary decision. Despite all the memes and descriptions of Bitcoin as digital gold, it is by no means a commodity. Bitcoin has no distinct use-value and exchange-value. It is not a physical raw material that can be converted into something else. It’s a database that sits on your computer. And mine. And everyone else's.
Read more here; https://bitcoinmagazine.com/takes/bitcoin-is-fiat
Now, what do you think about it?
I guess I am confused and don't know what to think about it.
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What does fiat mean? An arbitrary order or decree. Fiat currencies are given value by the authority of governments. They have value because the State decides they have value, and will accept them in payment of taxes. So how is Bitcoin fiat?
Well, I don't think BTC is fiat because we don't have a government to determine the value of BTC in the market. I trade BTC but I am not a government member, I only agree with the market price, I don't create that price myself.
The government is a finite and very small organization compared to the entire community. I think comparing BTC to fiat is inappropriate, we can compare BTC to Gold: they are both valued by everyone on a global scale, gaining popularity and widespread acceptance. I consider BTC a valuable commodity on the internet, a new asset class for investment.
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In my opinion, there can be some correlation between a fiat and Bitcoin in the sense of assigning value but this time around instead of the government or any financial institution doing it the power comes from the people. Beyond that aspect, there are a lot of Bitcoin's features that differ it from a fiat currency and on top of that is the limited supply of Bitcoin something that fiat money could not claim as governments in the past and yes into the present continued to increase the supply of the currency used by the people that usually resulted into great inflation. Fiat money is all about control while Bitcoin is empowering the people, that is according to the very vision of Nakamoto Satoshi. Being decentralized, no authority can take the seat and decide on anything related to it while fiat is at the hands of the government. Here is one vital danger of the fiat money (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp): "One danger of fiat money is that governments can print too much of it, resulting in hyperinflation." Bitcoin is, of course, deflationary.
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Now, what do you think about it?
I guess I am confused and don't know what to think about it.
I was going to say gold is a commodity and it also has no distinct value, but the raw material difference that gold can have a physical use case while BTC cannot have any is the most accurate one. Bitcoin is not a fiat because fiat like currency or notes is pegged with gold or other reserves.
There is no confusion I am seeing here because the experts from FED and SEC organization if have declared BTC a commodity while they have more information than me so I am going to follow them and take it as a commodity. Speaking of physical existence I hope with time a solution to that will also come.
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If you guys ask for my opinion since I created this thread, I would say I was confused reading it. I do not think Bitcoin is fiat, but the way they explained it, some parts actually made sense. Regardless of what I think, I am looking for the opinion of this community to understand it better. Bitcoin was invented with a purpose, but the purpose has been changing now, and I feel like we use it differently.
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Well, I don't think BTC is fiat because we don't have a government to determine the value of BTC in the market.
No government is capable of controlling the value of their on the market, if they could do such a thing we would have no inflation and we would have no Zimbabwe dollars, Iranian Rials, or whatever the currency in Syria is that is worse than toilet paper.
The USD is strong because people trust it, just as they trust BTC.
One could argue that the only non-fiat crypto is the ones that claim to be pegged to some gold reserves.
Bitcoin was invented with a purpose, but the purpose has been changing now, and I feel like we use it differently.
This is about definitions, not the purpose, people have a hard time understanding that
- blockchain can exist without tokens
- cryptocurrencies can be centralized
- market cap doesn't mean money invested in crypto
- just because coin is decentralized, in finite supply doesn't guarantee it has any kind of value
The reasoning for the comparison simple, fiat gets its value from the perceived value, Bitcoin does the same, and there is no mountain of gold or pile of money backing every satoshi. Of course, it triggers the hell from bitcoin maxi, but that's the thing, the definition word by word is true, and other aspects can't be further away from the truth.
Also, that's a level 1000 rage-farming article ;D
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No government is capable of controlling the value of their on the market, if they could do such a thing we would have no inflation and we would have no Zimbabwe dollars, Iranian Rials, or whatever the currency in Syria is that is worse than toilet paper.
I agree with this. While the entire world is moving forward, my country's government believes it is moving forward because it has done some structural development, such as building big highways, bridges, and ICT centers. But if I had seen the value of our currency, we could have bought a USD for 74 BDT back in 2015. After 9 years, we have to buy each USD for almost 130 BDT. If the government could control the value, they would do it. The inflation has been increasing as hell for the last five years as the central banks print billions of BDT every year to save some corrupted banks that are about to collapse. The people of my country paying for those governments corruption.
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But if I had seen the value of our currency, we could have bought a USD for 74 BDT back in 2015. After 9 years, we have to buy each USD for almost 130 BDT.
And this is the thing, why is the USD which is also FIAT gaining value and why are people buying USD to protect their savings? Because of the perceived value they think the USD has, which is as strange as it might seem the same as with every other crypto, people buy meme coins because they think they will go up in value people based just on their perception of value.
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But if I had seen the value of our currency, we could have bought a USD for 74 BDT back in 2015. After 9 years, we have to buy each USD for almost 130 BDT.
And this is the thing, why is the USD which is also FIAT gaining value and why are people buying USD to protect their savings? Because of the perceived value they think the USD has, which is as strange as it might seem the same as with every other crypto, people buy meme coins because they think they will go up in value people based just on their perception of value.
Yeah a hundred dollar is just a piece paper.
ITS worth what the people of the world believe it's worth.
SAME for 1 btc it's wroth what the people of the world believe it's worth.
Essentially i would argue air the most valuable thing there is for me. Yet I am lucky it is fairing easy to get.
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Yeah a hundred dollar is just a piece paper.
ITS worth what the people of the world believe it's worth.
SAME for 1 btc it's wroth what the people of the world believe it's worth.
It's some sort of defense mechanism when people try to argue that Bitcoin has some value because of...other reasons.
But yeah, it's the same one dollar bill is worth more than 100 rubles, and one BTC is worth more than 10 LTC, not because some mumbo jumbo but because people really believe that's their value.
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Yeah a hundred dollar is just a piece paper.
ITS worth what the people of the world believe it's worth.
SAME for 1 btc it's wroth what the people of the world believe it's worth.
It's some sort of defense mechanism when people try to argue that Bitcoin has some value because of...other reasons.
But yeah, it's the same one dollar bill is worth more than 100 rubles, and one BTC is worth more than 10 LTC, not because some mumbo jumbo but because people really believe that's their value.
and it looks like btc dropped as low as 91.2k today
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There are some fallacies in the post, we cannot compare Bitcoin to Fiat because there is a big difference in principle and concept, it is true that there may be a slight similarity in one aspect but there are big differences in several aspects.
Even if we give Bitcoin this value as you say, but no one can determine this value because it depends on the law of supply and demand, unlike fiat whose value is determined by the government, in addition to that there is a fundamental difference which is that society is decentralized unlike the central government and this is a fundamental difference.
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Bitcoin is fiat. Now go ahead, take the time you need to get it out of your system. Breath deeply. Blood pressure still up? Okay, let’s try this then.
What does fiat mean? An arbitrary order or decree. Fiat currencies are given value by the authority of governments. They have value because the State decides they have value, and will accept them in payment of taxes. So how is Bitcoin fiat?
A king waives his hand and gives fiat value. But there is no King of Bitcoin. Right? Wrong. It’s us.
We collectively give value to Bitcoin through our decision to use it. We bring it into existence through our collective arbitrary decision. Despite all the memes and descriptions of Bitcoin as digital gold, it is by no means a commodity. Bitcoin has no distinct use-value and exchange-value. It is not a physical raw material that can be converted into something else. It’s a database that sits on your computer. And mine. And everyone else's.
Read more here; https://bitcoinmagazine.com/takes/bitcoin-is-fiat
Now, what do you think about it?
I guess I am confused and don't know what to think about it.
Don't be hit me with any lightning bolts if I disagree. Thor may I call you Thor?
You completely ignore that POW supports BTC along with users that agree on a value for that power being burned.
BTC should have a value of zero if all mining ceased since all coins are trapped. Which makes them essentially worthless.
Just saying.
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A king waives his hand and gives fiat value. But there is no King of Bitcoin. Right? Wrong. It’s us.
but we don't exactly decide the price of bitcoin there is no one single entity that does it for us the price of bitcoin is its value based on its demand and supply no one exactly can manipulate bitcoin it's not like fiat that can be printed more to manipulate its value
Now, what do you think about it?
I guess I am confused and don't know what to think about it.
i think you are over complicating it lol to me fiat is money that is issued by a centralized government or bank and crypto is not hence it is not fiat it is just that simple i do not think we need to be making bitcoin any more confusing
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Even if we give Bitcoin this value as you say, but no one can determine this value because it depends on the law of supply and demand, unlike fiat whose value is determined by the government, in addition to that there is a fundamental difference which is that society is decentralized unlike the central government and this is a fundamental difference.
So you're saying the bolivar value or the Zimbabwe paper toilet value was determined by the government? They wanted it that low?
Both the USD and bitcoin have the same price determination method, are you willing to sell a bitcoin for $95 000 or $5000, the moment you're pricing your bItcoin you're also pricing the $. It's a misconception when somebody selling something doesn't realize that he is not just setting the price for what he sells he is also setting a price for what he gets back.
You completely ignore that POW supports BTC along with users that agree on a value for that power being burned.
But if everyone would point their mining gear at BCH, would BCH suddenly be worth $100k instead of $300?
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So you're saying the bolivar value or the Zimbabwe paper toilet value was determined by the government? They wanted it that low?
Both the USD and bitcoin have the same price determination method, are you willing to sell a bitcoin for $95 000 or $5000, the moment you're pricing your bItcoin you're also pricing the $. It's a misconception when somebody selling something doesn't realize that he is not just setting the price for what he sells he is also setting a price for what he gets back.
Of course they didn't want it that low but as a result of wrong economic policies and printing more and more currency it eventually turned into a pile of garbage.
Any government in the world wants their national currency to have a good value so when they first create their currency they give it a good value and over time the value of the national currency can decrease or increase depending on the economic policies of the government which lead to either the prosperity of the economy or its destruction.
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Any government in the world wants their national currency to have a good value so when they first create their currency they give it a good value and over time the value of the national currency can decrease or increase depending on the economic policies of the government which lead to either the prosperity of the economy or its destruction.
Not really.
China is consistently devaluating the yuan just as Japan is doing with the yen to help exports and encourage internal consumption.
Germany was also trying hard to bring the Deutsche markdown, and Italy was trying hard to prop up the Lira despite being export-orientated, a weak currency doesn't mean the end of a country.
The Turkish lira is down the drain would you say that Zambia is doing better because their currency is outperforming the lira?
It's still supply and demand, just with crypto.
What is the difference between the USD and the Zimbabwe dollar and Bitcoin and Bitcoin cash?
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Any government in the world wants their national currency to have a good value so when they first create their currency they give it a good value and over time the value of the national currency can decrease or increase depending on the economic policies of the government which lead to either the prosperity of the economy or its destruction.
Not really.
China is consistently devaluating the yuan just as Japan is doing with the yen to help exports and encourage internal consumption.
Germany was also trying hard to bring the Deutsche markdown, and Italy was trying hard to prop up the Lira despite being export-orientated, a weak currency doesn't mean the end of a country.
The Turkish lira is down the drain would you say that Zambia is doing better because their currency is outperforming the lira?
It's still supply and demand, just with crypto.
What is the difference between the USD and the Zimbabwe dollar and Bitcoin and Bitcoin cash?
I really don't understand why some countries want to devalue their local currency?
From what I know (here in my country at least) the government is always trying to increase the value of the local currency against the dollar, for example 1 dollar was equal to 15,000 in the local currency and now we have a new government that managed to make 1 dollar equal to 10,000 in the local currency, meaning the value of the local currency increased against the dollar and they considered this a great achievement for the government.
I am not an economist so I apologize if I do not understand what you mean exactly.
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I really don't understand why some countries want to devalue their local currency?
From what I know (here in my country at least) the government is always trying to increase the value of the local currency against the dollar, for example 1 dollar was equal to 15,000 in the local currency and now we have a new government that managed to make 1 dollar equal to 10,000 in the local currency, meaning the value of the local currency increased against the dollar and they considered this a great achievement for the government.
I am not an economist so I apologize if I do not understand what you mean exactly.
If you're an export-orientated country you want to keep the prices of your goods competitive.
Let's assume you export a 50k euro BMW to Nigeria and the naira goes down by 5 times, the car is suddenly 5 times more expensive for them and you can't sell it anymore, by devaluating the euro to half of the value you make it twice as cheap and some can still afford it.
Of course, imports will be costlier too but that would make demand for locally produced goods grow and if you export twice as much as you import it's better to have a weak currency.
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If you're an export-orientated country you want to keep the prices of your goods competitive.
Let's assume you export a 50k euro BMW to Nigeria and the naira goes down by 5 times, the car is suddenly 5 times more expensive for them and you can't sell it anymore, by devaluating the euro to half of the value you make it twice as cheap and some can still afford it.
Of course, imports will be costlier too but that would make demand for locally produced goods grow and if you export twice as much as you import it's better to have a weak currency.
Thank you, I think I understand you now
But what about the citizens who live in those countries that devalue their local currency, won't that make their lives harder? I mean they will have to pay double the cost of buying their things?
In the example you gave, the price of a car will become 100,000 euros for the citizens of that country, so how can such a problem be solved? By raising wages and salaries for example, or is the price of a car intended for export different from the local price?
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Thank you, I think I understand you now
But what about the citizens who live in those countries that devalue their local currency, won't that make their lives harder? I mean they will have to pay double the cost of buying their things?
In the example you gave, the price of a car will become 100,000 euros for the citizens of that country, so how can such a problem be solved? By raising wages and salaries for example, or is the price of a car intended for export different from the local price?
Well, first they will top buying those expensive goods, so less money coming out and less devaluation as fewer nairas are turning into euros.
Then goods made in the country become more competitive as imports grow more expensive.
A matter of keeping the balance, allowing just as many exports to prosper but at the same time keeping imports like energy and food affordable, and since it's a tricky thing no surprise that managed to do it are countries like Japan and China and previously Germany before the euro and not Zimbabwe or Venezuela with their stupid dictators.
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Bitcoin is fiat. Now go ahead, take the time you need to get it out of your system. Breath deeply. Blood pressure still up? Okay, let’s try this then.
Bitcoin is a currency and a very strong currency it is true but it is not yet a fiat currency but it can be believed that it will happen in the future. Fiat currency can only be called when Bitcoin can be used in all fields. How we use our money. So far the use of Bitcoin has not been introduced at all levels. When Bitcoin is legalized in every country in the world and Bitcoin is accepted as payment in every case, Bitcoin can be called an alternative to Fiat currency or directly Digital Fiat. While I agree with the logic you have shown, I cannot fully agree
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- We all know here that it can never be a fiat, and it is too far for bitcoin to be in this situation. It's just that Bitcoin has volatility that Fiat doesn't, because the price is stable in fiat while in bitcoin there is no fixed price and that's what makes bitcoin great compared to Fiat.
Then Bitcoin can even be sent anywhere in the world where we have friends, family who want to send fiat via bitcoin to exchanges that have p2p features
and things that fiat can't do with cheap transaction fees.
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Now, what do you think about it?
I guess I am confused and don't know what to think about it.
There is really no need for us to complicate things for ourselves. Fiat currencies are backed and issued by the government, and this is the major thing that distinguishes them from Bitcoin. Let's not confuse ourselves further by saying we are the kings who rule over Bitcoin. Bitcoin has several people controlling it, while fiat has only one entity (the government) controlling it. Bitcoin is not fiat.
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Bitcoin is fiat. Now go ahead, take the time you need to get it out of your system. Breath deeply. Blood pressure still up? Okay, let’s try this then.
What does fiat mean? An arbitrary order or decree. Fiat currencies are given value by the authority of governments. They have value because the State decides they have value, and will accept them in payment of taxes. So how is Bitcoin fiat?
A king waives his hand and gives fiat value. But there is no King of Bitcoin. Right? Wrong. It’s us.
We collectively give value to Bitcoin through our decision to use it. We bring it into existence through our collective arbitrary decision. Despite all the memes and descriptions of Bitcoin as digital gold, it is by no means a commodity. Bitcoin has no distinct use-value and exchange-value. It is not a physical raw material that can be converted into something else. It’s a database that sits on your computer. And mine. And everyone else's.
Read more here; https://bitcoinmagazine.com/takes/bitcoin-is-fiat
Now, what do you think about it?
I guess I am confused and don't know what to think about it.
In a nutshell, Bitcoin is a community driven ecosystem and it's values are based on consistent demand and supply rules plus other factors, unfortunately, it is not on any man's control. As we know, Bitcoin is a decentralized blockchain network, it does not work like the faits, can't be printed continuously, but has a fixed supply that will exist.
In addition, fiat are government own currency that are liable to be influenced by individuals or politicians at anytime etc.
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Fiat currency is unlimited but bitcoin is limited to only 21 million and that make it more value because it is scarce and the excess printing of fiat currency make it unvalued. Bitcoin would have been a World currency if all stores accepted it a their legal tender currency. And the cost of things would have reduced. And they are some factors that classified a currency to be fiat and bitcoin has not met those criteria. Bitcoin is only on internet and it is not stable.
The imagination world of bitcoin to be fiat is still on the dream world.
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That does not make much sense unfortunately. Fiat is a paper currency issued b governments. Bitcoin is not paper money (there were attempts to mint physical Bitcoin coins but - you guessed it - the government said that's illegal so they stopped), and no government issues bitcoins to the central bank.
The blockchain issues bitcoins to miners though. So in a way, the blockchain is like a government, governed by developers and industry pioneers, and the miners are like the central bank, who then sell their coins to exchanges who resemble other banks, and so on.