Crypto markets can exist without government permission

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

Quite controversial statements !
1. Cryptocurrency cannot simply and fully exist when the entire market is fiat money. Simplified and clear - you can not buy water, meat, vegetables for cryptocurrency. So you cannot use cryptocurrency as an alternative financial system. That's a fact !
2. “Bitcoin can solve most economic problems” - it can't ! Economic problems are not solved by changing the type of financial system, but by economic mechanisms. If we do not know something - share, how do you think replacing the fiat system with bitcoin will save the economy, for example, your country ? Only please - in detail and with arguments and taking into account all the nuances ?
PS I'm sure there will be no answer to this question

First of, I didn't say Bitcoin can completely replace the traditional fiat currency, because I'm fully aware that each of em has exactly how best they feature and contribute to the development and smooth running of the economy.

Secondly, I'm not advocating that Bitcoin has the capacity to solve ALL economic problems, but there are some crucial aspects of the economy that Bitcoin can indeed lubricate such as.

1. Bitcoin as a store of value, I believe a lot of people can agree with me that Bitcoin can be considered to be a better store of Value compared to Gold and other store of value.
2. Security: Bitcoin's decentralized nature provides a much better security and transparency when compared to the traditional fiat system.
3. Censorship Resistance: since Bitcoin is decentralized, it's impossible for anyone to block or freeze Bitcoin transactions.
4. Inflation protection, I believe this one is self explanatory.

There are several others I can't mention.
Maybe you think changing a country's financial system wouldn't have much impact on economic reformation and development, but then again, we can agree that finance happens to be one of the most important aspect and pillars of an economy, so when there's a flaw in the financial system of a country, the economy is automatically affected.

[saprakib]

If taxes are too large, it is likely that people will be lazy about paying taxes, especially as you said investment taxes in India reach 30%, this is very burdensome for crypto investors. The country's government should review this rule.

High taxes are not the problem itself. If taxes really go where they are supposed to, if they create infrastructure, cultural places, civilization moves forward and society begins to live better, then it is not a pity to pay high taxes. Problems begin when taxes are stolen by those who are in power. Of course, in such a case there is no reason and desire to pay even 5%, not to mention 30%.

I thunk high tax is also a fact when you earn low. We know there are lot of option in crypto where you can earn different amount. If you pay over taxes what will be on your hand then. So that need a good decision and infrastructure to control al over and decrease the tax amount. It will help to encourage the earning people from crypto  to earn much and more and enjoy and survive their money. I also have heard many times to restrict it by low but nothing could happen with that. I wanna say to them make a low how to control and make secure thing as currency which makes a country to go ahead to the next world.

[yohananaomi]

I am from India. Earlier crypto was free in my country. But since last few years Indian government has taken over crypto. And it is continuing to do so. High taxes are being imposed and new rules are being imposed. If I look at the past time, the crypto market was running smoothly without any interference from the government.

Of course, it is very a dilemma for you because there is no restriction. Now it is applied to high tax restrictions, because the government already knows that interested people or users of Crypto in your country are very large, so it is natural that the government is limiting taxes so that there is income for the government. But we know that crypto is not intervened and can do trade, etc. not through the government, but it is clear that it violates the rules and it is not recommended to violate the rules.

[libert19]

...But we know that crypto is not intervened and can do trade, etc. not through the government...

Back when crypto was completely banned, Indians could trade via p2p means but it had it's fair share of problems, I was scammed once too. From that perspective, it's good that ban was lifted and now exchanges are free to operate, at least people can exchange their fiat assets safely despite having to pay taxes. 

[DrBeer]

Quite controversial statements !
1. Cryptocurrency cannot simply and fully exist when the entire market is fiat money. Simplified and clear - you can not buy water, meat, vegetables for cryptocurrency. So you cannot use cryptocurrency as an alternative financial system. That's a fact !
2. “Bitcoin can solve most economic problems” - it can't ! Economic problems are not solved by changing the type of financial system, but by economic mechanisms. If we do not know something - share, how do you think replacing the fiat system with bitcoin will save the economy, for example, your country ? Only please - in detail and with arguments and taking into account all the nuances ?
PS I'm sure there will be no answer to this question

First of, I didn't say Bitcoin can completely replace the traditional fiat currency, because I'm fully aware that each of em has exactly how best they feature and contribute to the development and smooth running of the economy.

Secondly, I'm not advocating that Bitcoin has the capacity to solve ALL economic problems, but there are some crucial aspects of the economy that Bitcoin can indeed lubricate such as.

1. Bitcoin as a store of value, I believe a lot of people can agree with me that Bitcoin can be considered to be a better store of Value compared to Gold and other store of value.
2. Security: Bitcoin's decentralized nature provides a much better security and transparency when compared to the traditional fiat system.
3. Censorship Resistance: since Bitcoin is decentralized, it's impossible for anyone to block or freeze Bitcoin transactions.
4. Inflation protection, I believe this one is self explanatory.

There are several others I can't mention.
Maybe you think changing a country's financial system wouldn't have much impact on economic reformation and development, but then again, we can agree that finance happens to be one of the most important aspect and pillars of an economy, so when there's a flaw in the financial system of a country, the economy is automatically affected.

Thanks for the clarification, I'll add that I probably didn't express my opinion accurately if you thought that I expected you to “solve all problems” Yes, English is not my native language, you can expect inaccuracies.

Let me start with the last sentences: the financial system is one of the main pillars of the economy. It's silly to deny it. But there is a nuance... the financial system is very much related to such a concept as POWER. And here we face the first problem - a decentralized, not controlled “out of my hands” system is not needed by the POWER. Otherwise, it, the power, will lose one of the key mechanisms of governance.

1. Bitcoin as a means of saving is a good idea, but.... it is more or less workable if there are guarantees of bitcoin growth, and the HOLDER'S POSSIBILITY to hold it without selling it for 2-3-5 years. Hint - poor people can't do it....
2. Decentralization is good, but also... bad - any mistake in the address - and bitcoin is irretrievably lost. Or if a person can't ensure quality storage of a passphrase, password - his bitcoins will DEFINITELY be stolen.... Decentralization has disadvantages in addition to advantages, this is also a fact
3. Yes, decentralization is good, but... Legislative norms and mechanisms of influence can easily make your bitcoins (your wallet) illiquid by putting it on a blacklist for exchanges, stores,...
4.Regarding the protection against inflation - also a controversial issue, because it can give a positive result only in the long term, which, for example, the poor are not ready for.....

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

Thanks for the clarification, I'll add that I probably didn't express my opinion accurately if you thought that I expected you to “solve all problems” Yes, English is not my native language, you can expect inaccuracies.

Let me start with the last sentences: the financial system is one of the main pillars of the economy. It's silly to deny it. But there is a nuance... the financial system is very much related to such a concept as POWER. And here we face the first problem - a decentralized, not controlled “out of my hands” system is not needed by the POWER. Otherwise, it, the power, will lose one of the key mechanisms of governance.

1. Bitcoin as a means of saving is a good idea, but.... it is more or less workable if there are guarantees of bitcoin growth, and the HOLDER'S POSSIBILITY to hold it without selling it for 2-3-5 years. Hint - poor people can't do it....
2. Decentralization is good, but also... bad - any mistake in the address - and bitcoin is irretrievably lost. Or if a person can't ensure quality storage of a passphrase, password - his bitcoins will DEFINITELY be stolen.... Decentralization has disadvantages in addition to advantages, this is also a fact
3. Yes, decentralization is good, but... Legislative norms and mechanisms of influence can easily make your bitcoins (your wallet) illiquid by putting it on a blacklist for exchanges, stores,...
4.Regarding the protection against inflation - also a controversial issue, because it can give a positive result only in the long term, which, for example, the poor are not ready for.....

All you've said is just as accurate as said, I'd be damned if I said decentralization doesn't have its prons and cons, just like every other things, decentralization has its disadvantages and flaws but compared to native fiat currency/banking systems, you'll need to consider which option is a lot more preferable or convenient.

To buttress your 1st point, while you're right that there's no guarantee for Bitcoin growth, and yes past events are not a guarantee for future performance but then again, if you think about it very well, you'll be able to notice that Bitcoin has proven beyond doubt to be the best digital asset when it comes of having potential for future growth and maintaining its reputation in the long run.
Thousands/millions of people around the globe are actively participating and HODLing Bitcoin, I'm pretty sure if they're not sure and positive about tye authenticity of Bitcoin, the population wouldn't be that much.
Concerning the HOLDER's possibility to HODL for that long, before a person decides to store his value or his money, he should already be aware that savings are meant to be for the long-term, except of course they plan to save for a short-term goal, then they can sort for other means to save.
Sure, the poor may not be able to do it, but then again, how many poor people has the ability to purchase gold and save their money there? It's also almost impossible for the poor to do so too right?

Yes, any mistakes in the address, one's Bitcoin is irretrievably lost hence the reason why people needs to double check the address or any of the recipient's details before initiating any transactions, which is the normal thing to do when making transactions.
Concerning one's wallet being compromised due to their inability to secure their passphrases or any other confidential information, people should always be aware that information such as those are quite delicate and should be protected, it's just like accidentally giving out your credit card or debit card details to someone else and then got scammed... Whether with bitcoin or traditional banking systems, there's always need to be cautious and protective of your personal information and avoid them getting into the wrong hands.

You need to realize that the Blockchain technology and Bitcoin is relatively a new technology and currency, and has the possibility to make changes and has room for further developments and innovations.

[DrBeer]

Thanks for the clarification, I'll add that I probably didn't express my opinion accurately if you thought that I expected you to “solve all problems” Yes, English is not my native language, you can expect inaccuracies.

Let me start with the last sentences: the financial system is one of the main pillars of the economy. It's silly to deny it. But there is a nuance... the financial system is very much related to such a concept as POWER. And here we face the first problem - a decentralized, not controlled “out of my hands” system is not needed by the POWER. Otherwise, it, the power, will lose one of the key mechanisms of governance.

1. Bitcoin as a means of saving is a good idea, but.... it is more or less workable if there are guarantees of bitcoin growth, and the HOLDER'S POSSIBILITY to hold it without selling it for 2-3-5 years. Hint - poor people can't do it....
2. Decentralization is good, but also... bad - any mistake in the address - and bitcoin is irretrievably lost. Or if a person can't ensure quality storage of a passphrase, password - his bitcoins will DEFINITELY be stolen.... Decentralization has disadvantages in addition to advantages, this is also a fact
3. Yes, decentralization is good, but... Legislative norms and mechanisms of influence can easily make your bitcoins (your wallet) illiquid by putting it on a blacklist for exchanges, stores,...
4.Regarding the protection against inflation - also a controversial issue, because it can give a positive result only in the long term, which, for example, the poor are not ready for.....

All you've said is just as accurate as said, I'd be damned if I said decentralization doesn't have its prons and cons, just like every other things, decentralization has its disadvantages and flaws but compared to native fiat currency/banking systems, you'll need to consider which option is a lot more preferable or convenient.

To buttress your 1st point, while you're right that there's no guarantee for Bitcoin growth, and yes past events are not a guarantee for future performance but then again, if you think about it very well, you'll be able to notice that Bitcoin has proven beyond doubt to be the best digital asset when it comes of having potential for future growth and maintaining its reputation in the long run.
Thousands/millions of people around the globe are actively participating and HODLing Bitcoin, I'm pretty sure if they're not sure and positive about tye authenticity of Bitcoin, the population wouldn't be that much.
Concerning the HOLDER's possibility to HODL for that long, before a person decides to store his value or his money, he should already be aware that savings are meant to be for the long-term, except of course they plan to save for a short-term goal, then they can sort for other means to save.
Sure, the poor may not be able to do it, but then again, how many poor people has the ability to purchase gold and save their money there? It's also almost impossible for the poor to do so too right?

Yes, any mistakes in the address, one's Bitcoin is irretrievably lost hence the reason why people needs to double check the address or any of the recipient's details before initiating any transactions, which is the normal thing to do when making transactions.
Concerning one's wallet being compromised due to their inability to secure their passphrases or any other confidential information, people should always be aware that information such as those are quite delicate and should be protected, it's just like accidentally giving out your credit card or debit card details to someone else and then got scammed... Whether with bitcoin or traditional banking systems, there's always need to be cautious and protective of your personal information and avoid them getting into the wrong hands.

You need to realize that the Blockchain technology and Bitcoin is relatively a new technology and currency, and has the possibility to make changes and has room for further developments and innovations.

If we consider the situation from the point of view of bitcoin's quality and prospects as a digital asset - I absolutely agree, everything is correct.
But as always, there are nuances.... On the one hand, in the long term, we see a tendency for bitcoin to grow with some cycles.
On the other hand we see cycles of severe value decline, also with cycles.
The question is - how long will this trend continue ? I have a hunch that today's “recognition” of the Bitcoin ETF is done for a rather cunning move - on the one hand to “recognize” and on the other hand to show that this asset, in a regulated financial system, will not be such an effective investment vehicle, just to hit the reputation of bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general. There are a lot of reasons for this - from discomfort for the financial system of the state(s), to “inconvenient asset” for those in power ...
And again - the opportunity to use bitcoin, to store it, is available only to people with average income, and this is a very important nuance, because the majority of people, it is not an available instrument of accumulation/income.

This is what I'm getting at - bitcoin cannot be a tool that “will save the country's economy”, it is a purely speculative asset (for today) that does not help the economy in any way, but helps some group of people.

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

✂️✂️✂️✂️

While the economic value of Bitcoin might not be seen as directly generating money like goods and services do, it is also instrumental in generating forms of value that could prove useful in the economic development of the country eventually. For instance, Bitcoin’s ability of cheap and fast international remittances can triple ‘in-flow’ of money to a nation. Moreover, it can able to offer basic and essential financial services to the unserved and low income population hence enhance financial inclusion.

The increasing popularity of Bitcoin and blockchain technology also has the potential to draw investments, encourage innovations, and bring new business prospects associated with, for instance, fintech and Web3. Additionally, Bitcoin can also be used as an item of stash and for this end, can be of benefit to whoever wishes to keep his or her money and actually any class irrespective of their financial status especially in countries experiencing high inflation or even currency devaluation helping to maintain people’s wealth and stabilize an economy.

However, one must emphasize that these potential benefits are still in their defragmentation stage and may further evolve with time along with improvements in the existing and new technologies as well as with changing regulations. That is why speaking about the consequences of Bitcoin adoption one has to admit that its speculative character is rather justified now, but it is not the only advantage that can affect the economy of a country.

[DrBeer]

✂️✂️✂️✂️

While the economic value of Bitcoin might not be seen as directly generating money like goods and services do, it is also instrumental in generating forms of value that could prove useful in the economic development of the country eventually. For instance, Bitcoin’s ability of cheap and fast international remittances can triple ‘in-flow’ of money to a nation. Moreover, it can able to offer basic and essential financial services to the unserved and low income population hence enhance financial inclusion.

The increasing popularity of Bitcoin and blockchain technology also has the potential to draw investments, encourage innovations, and bring new business prospects associated with, for instance, fintech and Web3. Additionally, Bitcoin can also be used as an item of stash and for this end, can be of benefit to whoever wishes to keep his or her money and actually any class irrespective of their financial status especially in countries experiencing high inflation or even currency devaluation helping to maintain people’s wealth and stabilize an economy.

However, one must emphasize that these potential benefits are still in their defragmentation stage and may further evolve with time along with improvements in the existing and new technologies as well as with changing regulations. That is why speaking about the consequences of Bitcoin adoption one has to admit that its speculative character is rather justified now, but it is not the only advantage that can affect the economy of a country.

On the one hand, I agree, but there are contradictions. First of all, I re-emphasize the group of low-income people. Why? Because for a layer of rich people or the middle class, bitcoin can serve as an asset for saving, investing or preserving the value of money, which they already have in sufficient quantity.
But I am most interested in the poor part of the population, because people with low incomes need help the most, against the background of the rich or middle class.
This is where the nuances come in. Nuance one, a primitive nuance, is a technological nuance. Cryptocurrency requires hardware and internet. Hard to argue, but most poor people do not have this “kit” That is, most of them will simply not be able to technically use this technology
Nuance number two is the cost of transactions. People who have, for example, a monthly income in the equivalent of 100 dollars, or so, are unlikely to accept a fee of 20-40 dollars.
These are nuances that lie on the surface. And this we have not yet reached the issue of using savings in bitcoin to provide for their daily needs.....

In sum, my thought is that bitcoin is not a bad financial instrument, but its scope of application is limited to users with medium or high incomes.

[MrSpasybo]

On the one hand, I agree, but there are contradictions. First of all, I re-emphasize the group of low-income people. Why? Because for a layer of rich people or the middle class, bitcoin can serve as an asset for saving, investing or preserving the value of money, which they already have in sufficient quantity.
But I am most interested in the poor part of the population, because people with low incomes need help the most, against the background of the rich or middle class.
This is where the nuances come in. Nuance one, a primitive nuance, is a technological nuance. Cryptocurrency requires hardware and internet. Hard to argue, but most poor people do not have this “kit” That is, most of them will simply not be able to technically use this technology
Nuance number two is the cost of transactions. People who have, for example, a monthly income in the equivalent of 100 dollars, or so, are unlikely to accept a fee of 20-40 dollars.
These are nuances that lie on the surface. And this we have not yet reached the issue of using savings in bitcoin to provide for their daily needs.....

In sum, my thought is that bitcoin is not a bad financial instrument, but its scope of application is limited to users with medium or high incomes.

I count BTC as a financial instrument in the investment sector, meaning it can become a way to store value or generate profits for investors. Unlike other traditional assets such as gold, stocks, or real estate, participating in the purchase and self-custody of BTC has fewer barriers, and many people can participate. The internet and smartphones have become popular, meaning that billions of people can participate in investing a few tens of $ into BTC, which is completely possible.

Transaction costs are no longer an issue with BTC as the Lightning Network has been able to serve at a speed of millions of tps, reducing transaction fees to a few cents. This is being experienced by the people of El Salvador.

Finally, if someone believes in the enormous potential of BTC, they can choose BTC to be a strategic investment, regardless of government permission or bans. This is something that other asset classes can hardly provide!

[0t3p0t]

...But we know that crypto is not intervened and can do trade, etc. not through the government...

Back when crypto was completely banned, Indians could trade via p2p means but it had it's fair share of problems, I was scammed once too. From that perspective, it's good that ban was lifted and now exchanges are free to operate, at least people can exchange their fiat assets safely despite having to pay taxes.

Well, based on my understanding with your opinion it is clear that you feel safe with centralized exchange and tax is worth it. But to be honest it is really safe doing that for some reason that is why we have options to whether hodl our funds from non custodial wallets, local crypto e-wallets and a crypto exchange especially the local one for us to be able to convert crypto to our local fiat currency without any feelings of doubts about being scammed because it was all under SEC though I personally use it only for withdrawals because I don't usually store crypto in there unless I need to cash it out.

[libert19]

...But we know that crypto is not intervened and can do trade, etc. not through the government...

Back when crypto was completely banned, Indians could trade via p2p means but it had it's fair share of problems, I was scammed once too. From that perspective, it's good that ban was lifted and now exchanges are free to operate, at least people can exchange their fiat assets safely despite having to pay taxes.

Well, based on my understanding with your opinion it is clear that you feel safe with centralized exchange and tax is worth it. But to be honest it is really safe doing that for some reason that is why we have options to whether hodl our funds from non custodial wallets, local crypto e-wallets and a crypto exchange especially the local one for us to be able to convert crypto to our local fiat currency without any feelings of doubts about being scammed because it was all under SEC though I personally use it only for withdrawals because I don't usually store crypto in there unless I need to cash it out.

I also use local CEXs for withdrawals to fiat only, usually don't keep much funds there as there aren't many coins to purchase anyway compared to bigger exchanges like binance and dexes.

[yohananaomi]

...But we know that crypto is not intervened and can do trade, etc. not through the government...

Back when crypto was completely banned, Indians could trade via p2p means but it had it's fair share of problems, I was scammed once too. From that perspective, it's good that ban was lifted and now exchanges are free to operate, at least people can exchange their fiat assets safely despite having to pay taxes.

Actually, taking action against the rules is clearly inappropriate even though there are facilities that can be done even though they are against the rules. But again, the risks and fraud like you said can happen with transactions like you said, because they are not supported by clear rules.
Be happy if the rules have started to be opened and allowed, because that is the best way that is very appropriate to do it rather than going against the rules go hopefully, it will continue because, after all, crypto is worthy of being done by a country whose community is very large.

[doc]

...But we know that crypto is not intervened and can do trade, etc. not through the government...

Back when crypto was completely banned, Indians could trade via p2p means but it had it's fair share of problems, I was scammed once too. From that perspective, it's good that ban was lifted and now exchanges are free to operate, at least people can exchange their fiat assets safely despite having to pay taxes.

Actually, taking action against the rules is clearly inappropriate even though there are facilities that can be done even though they are against the rules. But again, the risks and fraud like you said can happen with transactions like you said, because they are not supported by clear rules.
Be happy if the rules have started to be opened and allowed, because that is the best way that is very appropriate to do it rather than going against the rules go hopefully, it will continue because, after all, crypto is worthy of being done by a country whose community is very large.

It seems that the government in some countries has started receiving Bitcoin and Crypto, so we don't need to carry out the stitching that prohibits it. But trying to take advantage of the opportunity if the government in our country has begun to receive bitcoin as an investment. This is a good thing. Bitcoin and Altcoin will get good news if it can be accepted in all countries both as an investment and payment method, but we must wait until the government immediately makes rules about crypto.

[Etranger]

It seems that the government in some countries has started receiving Bitcoin and Crypto, so we don't need to carry out the stitching that prohibits it. But trying to take advantage of the opportunity if the government in our country has begun to receive bitcoin as an investment. This is a good thing. Bitcoin and Altcoin will get good news if it can be accepted in all countries both as an investment and payment method, but we must wait until the government immediately makes rules about crypto.

Not all governments will take such a step. Many states will not be allowed to do so by economic realities. Not to mention creating acceptable legislation that would regulate, rather than limit and subject the cryptosphere and relations within it to total control. Yes, some states are interested, but these are the states that are turned to face the people, that are legal. The majority consider cryptocurrencies as a way to take even more taxes.