Proposal: Karma requirements for ranks

[dragononcrypto]

Translation summaries: Bangla | Russian | Serbian | Ukrainian

This is a proposal from the Senate that has become the favoured proposal out of a handful of options. This proposal is by no means unanimously supported by senators, nor was it the only proposed option that received support. See phases of this proposal at bottom of post for summary so far, with intended future phases should this proposal gain support here.

Please vote Yes, No, Indifferent/Neutral, or Don't understand in the poll above, and ideally explain your reasoning in the comments. Ie do you think this new rank requirement would be good or bad for the forum? Do you think this would benefit you or cause a disadvantage as a member of this forum? Would you experience a rank demotion based on the proposal, and if so, is this a reason for opposing?

To clarify, this proposal is based on the retrospective application of karma requirement for ranks, hence demotions and new rank distribution. For context, admin has opposed this proposal, as he believes it would be disruptive for users to experience rank demotions, or more difficult requirements to obtain certain ranks. Needless to say this proposal would require considerable community support for admin to even consider accepting let alone implementing. It should probably be noted that admin has in the past implemented increase in rank difficulty for users that resulted in rank demotions on more than one occasion.

This proposal has otherwise not been accepted or approved in the senate, nor by admin, who has recommended this be discussed and voted on by the community.


Proposal C: "The Halving"

Based on (M = K*10) and Mythical+ at 20 A:K. Total karma issuers (Senior+): 514 (-59%).

Rank	Activity	Karma	A:K Ratio	Remaining	Current	Demoted	% Demoted	Demoted To	New Total	% Change
Jnr. Member	46	0	-	683	784	101	13%	531	1214	+55%
Member	90	1	90	222	447	225	50%	773	995	+123%
Full Member	136	10	13.6	137	790	653	83%	188	325	-59%
Sr. Member	312	25	12.5	117	558	441	79%	88	205	-63%
Hero Member	700	50	14	63	314	251	80%	62	125	-60%
Legendary	1200	100	12	170	375	205	55%	0	170	-55%
Mythical	5000	250	20	8	8	0	0%	0	8	0%
Padawan	10000	500	20	5	5	0	0%	0	5	0%
Jedi	15000	750	20	1	1	0	0%	0	1	0%
Jedi Master	20000	1000	20	0	0	0	0%	0	0	0%
Sub-Total				502	2051	1549	76% (Excluding Jnr / Members)
Sub-Total				724	2498	1774	71% (Excluding Jnrs)
Total				1407	3282	1875	57% (Total demotions)

Charts: This is the before and after comparison. Blue = users that retain their ranks | Red = users that would be demoted | Green = ranks users would be demoted to.

   

Charts: Comparison between current rank distribution, proposed new rank distribution, and distribution of all positive/neutral karma earnt by all users (see this topic for karma earnt sorted by ranks).

      


Notes

• Data includes number of demotions, % of demotions, current total members per rank, new total members per rank, % change per rank, and rank distribution by %.
• Activity to Karma Ratio (A:K) is the difficulty assessment for earning karma. The lower the number, the more difficult the rank is to obtain.
• Data provided is based on total users not active users, therefore the affect on active users will be significantly less.
• Thanks to dwyane36 for providing karma data on users. Data correct as of November 18th 2024.
• Key: M = BitcoinTalk Merit | K = Karma | R = Rank | A:K = Activity to Karma Ratio.
• Current number of karma issuers (Senior+): 1261

Proposal Phases

• Phase 1: Brainstorming and proposal options, assess support for karma requirements in Senate ✅
• Phase 2: Run-off poll between full developed proposals to identify most popular proposal ✅
• ➡️ Phase 3: Proposal to the community based on most popular Senate proposal ⬅️
• Phase 4: Amendments and proposal review (based on Phase 3)
• Phase 5: Final proposal in Senate with Yes/No/Abstain votes.
• Phase 6: Approval or rejection by admin

[dragononcrypto]

Generally I support the proposal of having rank requirements, even if not specifically this proposal, and otherwise believe this new rank distribution would more accurately represent the current distribution of karma that has currently been earnt by all users (referenced above: karma earnt by all ranks chart compared with proposal c new rank distribution). This is in order to encourage and incentivize quality of posting over quantity of posting, and therefore intends to increase of the quality of discussion overall on the forum, as well as maintain the standards of the current karma earnt by Mythical ranks and above.

I get that while rank demotions and new requirements could well be discouraging and disheartening for some users, I otherwise believe it otherwise benefits the majority of the most active users here, and better recognises those who have earnt the karma for their rank, as well as those who have exceeded and obtained enough karma for the rank above. As an example, while 55% of Legendary users would be demoted, of the 45% remaining, 38% would have enough karma for Mythical at 250+ (17% of total). Likewise, 8% of Heroes would have have enough karma for Legendary, which would be 40% of the remaining.

There is plenty more I could say (and have said already) on this topic, regarding various other factors, but for now it's probably best to let the community vote and critique.

[Findingnemo]

I am not sure, so for now I am taking neutral stand. I understand that having Karma requirements for ranking up will help the quality of forum to increase but still we are not overwhelmed with the traffic first so the priority is about help engaging more active users and more interesting threads and topics to discuss and once it's uncontrollable of spam then we can introduce the Karma requirements.

[Lucius]

I support the proposal to introduce karma as a criterion for reaching the rank, because those who follow the forum a little better see that ordinary shitposters very easily reach the Senior, and even the Hero rank, which is not only illogical, but such members are able to give karma points.

What I would personally change is the number of karma for certain lower ranks because I think that only 1 karma for Member rank is too little and I would increase it to 5. Furthermore, I would increase the Senior rank to 50 karma because with that rank comes a certain responsibility, and accordingly for the Hero rank to 75 karma.

I know that what is being proposed is not something that will be well received and that nobody is happy if it is demoted, but I think that the proposal as it is (with possible improvements) is simply something that the forum needs.

Those who came here from BTT and have been there for a long time know how much the merits system has improved that forum, but also that there was no rank demoted there when the system was introduced.

+1

[examplens]

I have already written my position on this topic to the senate board, so for now I will not repeat much here.

I would only suggest that the admin link this discussion in the news in the top right corner, for example, to replace Vote for the forum senate. It would be really important that as many members as possible participate in this discussion.

[yahoo62278]

Introducing requirements for ranking is no different than the Merit requirement we are all familiar with elsewhere. We will start seeing abusers as most ranks can send karma just like we see on the other forum. We will see people giving karma for nearly everything to increase their friends or alt accounts.

Being as I am not as active on here as I used to be, my word probably means a little less, but there just isn't enough activity as far as promotion to warrant needing to make radical changes. I know karma can be monitored and abusers will be punished but doesn't seem worth the hassle when you are trying to grow the forum traffic. Report posts, delete spam, try to keep it clean for now and teach users that are not being productive a better way to interact on the forum.

[NotATether]

I support this.

Being a Hero/Legendary member should be a privilege, not something easily attainable.

[Freemind]

Although I am in favor of the ranks being reached after achieving a certain amount of Karma in the forum (in fact, this idea comes from 2021), what does not seem like a good idea to me is the fact of demoting users.

What should be more difficult to achieve may be (as NotATether says) Sr. Member, Hero and Legendary, with Sr. Member being the starting rank to grant Karma, as we already know.

What does everyone think about the possibility of (I repeat, if this idea advances), implementing it from a certain date?.

[Jokers]

What does everyone think about the possibility of (I repeat, if this idea advances), implementing it from a certain date?.

It looks most reasonable: why do we need to demote anyone? No need. If there are low quality posters, there is a corresponding badge. So right, the implementation of new requirements should be done for new rank ups, not retrospectively. If someone got the rank and will misbehave, there are enough negative badges for all of bad actors!

[dragononcrypto]

@Freemind, @Jokers, I hear you. I had thought before posting this that non-retrospective requirements was probably the only form of proposal that would actually be possible to adopt (based on admin's opinion as well). I think for now if this proposal as it is continues to gain support, then it is a strong enough indicator that non-retrospective requirements would also be supported (even if not as much support for that).

At least for those supporting this proposal, I imagine they would also support this non-respectively without demotions, even if not the favoured outcome, and probably others who oppose would also be more neutral/supportive. At least with more votes and discussion it'll become clearer what the community think is the best direction to take in the future.

Whether that is implemented or not is a different story, and almost somewhat irrelevant to me personally. The senate/community can only propose popular suggestions, it's ultimately up to admin to approve and implement. The latter also being more complicated with technical implementations etc, so also may not be possible anyway.


Edit: Have added summarised translated notifications (thanks to Jokers) to OP. Please post links below if you have posted a notification in your local language, either a brief summary or translated summary. No need to translate the entire proposal with table etc, just a brief summary would be useful to local language sections, in order to increase and broaden feedback.

[bitbit97]

If this karma requirement for ranking is similar to merit system on BTT, then how giving "-karma would" would impact on current rank? Once rank is reached, if a person starts getting "-karma" and his karma decreases, will he lose ranks as well? It can start rank wars. Also users karma should be transparent to everything then, to prevent karma farmers, to so that users can notice cheaters, and not put all that load on the shoulders of admins or mods (I suppose they have option to see more info about users karma change).

[DYING_S0UL]

If this karma requirement for ranking is similar to merit system on BTT, then how giving "-karma would" would impact on current rank? Once rank is reached, if a person starts getting "-karma" and his karma decreases, will he lose ranks as well? It can start rank wars. Also users karma should be transparent to everything then, to prevent karma farmers, to so that users can notice cheaters, and not put all that load on the shoulders of admins or mods (I suppose they have option to see more info about users karma change).

Valid point mate! Without transparency it would mean war! Especially spammers, abusers, and malicious people might try to exploit this. It's only logical to open the karma information to the public just like BTT, if this rule is added. Also, I'm not sure whether the forum has enough manpower to monitor all kind of things. But if karma info were to made public, who gave (+-) whom, then users like us will be able to determine whether is was intentional or deserved!

At the same time, including karma to the requirements for ranking up opens all kinds of possibilities! And we'll have be prepared for that! We also have to keep in mind that, making all these change to the forum won't be an easy job for the admin! 

[hugeblack]

I support it but I don't understand how activity are calculated?
If we take @dragononcrypto and @Jokers as examples of average Joe users, we find that they did not exceed 5000/10000 activity scores, so many will not be able to rankup due to activity.


Regarding karma, on average many can get ~10 karma per month, so 10 months is good to get the legendary rank.

[Freemind]

@Freemind, @Jokers, I hear you. I had thought before posting this that non-retrospective requirements was probably the only form of proposal that would actually be possible to adopt (based on admin's opinion as well). I think for now if this proposal as it is continues to gain support, then it is a strong enough indicator that non-retrospective requirements would also be supported (even if not as much support for that).
~snip~

I'm glad to read that. When we have more points of view and more ideas from other users, it would be more logical to talk about a (possible) implementation date.

If this karma requirement for ranking is similar to merit system on BTT, then how giving "-karma would" would impact on current rank? Once rank is reached, if a person starts getting "-karma" and his karma decreases, will he lose ranks as well? It can start rank wars. Also users karma should be transparent to everything then, to prevent karma farmers, to so that users can notice cheaters, and not put all that load on the shoulders of admins or mods (I suppose they have option to see more info about users karma change).

The current ranks of users would not be affected, since as we have said, this proposal (if accepted by the administrator) would not be retrospective, so it would begin to work from a certain date that is not yet known. From that date on, if a user loses Karma, it would be logical that their rank would be affected.

Regarding making Karma logs public, I have always said and will continue to say the same thing. It is better for everyone that it is not public, because that would be a constant war between users.

[dragononcrypto]

If this karma requirement for ranking is similar to merit system on BTT, then how giving "-karma would" would impact on current rank? Once rank is reached, if a person starts getting "-karma" and his karma decreases, will he lose ranks as well? It can start rank wars. Also users karma should be transparent to everything then, to prevent karma farmers, to so that users can notice cheaters, and not put all that load on the shoulders of admins or mods (I suppose they have option to see more info about users karma change).

The current ranks of users would not be affected, since as we have said, this proposal (if accepted by the administrator) would not be retrospective, so it would begin to work from a certain date that is not yet known. From that date on, if a user loses Karma, it would be logical that their rank would be affected.

To be clear, as summarised in the OP, this proposal definitively includes demotions of users. Whether this supported, or the end result, is a different story however.

From that date on, if a user loses Karma, it would be logical that their rank would be affected.

This is also how I understand it, based on how activity works at least. For example when trashing posts of a spammer, this then reduces their activity and can (and does) lead to rank demotions as an immediate outcome. Whether retrospectively applied or not, it should be expected that the requirement is fixed in that without the required amount of karma you would be demoted. Likewise once you have reached the required no of karma, you get rank promotion. The fact a user could be demoted by the click of a button from another user is not a bad thing to me, in fact it's a bonus.


I do understand concerns over karma abuse, but given the lack of negative karma that is issued on the forum generally, then I really don't see this as a major issue.

As many have pointed out in the past in previous topics, where there is -1 karma there is always +2 around the corner as it were, so the negative shouldn't affect you that, only slow you down at worst. If you are receiving -2 regularly and struggling with +1, then this is a different story though, and probably a reason why ranks should be more difficult to obtain to be honest.